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  1. #91
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Thats an excellent way of explaining Fi thought processes. An Fi user is his or her own check and balance. What happens when everyone but the Fi user sees this? Granted, there is such thing as consensus and there comes a point when, to use my prior example of the ISFP, the consensus of her co-workers is that she does have a double standard. Does Fi just ignore this?
    It might well do. The moral locus is inside so an assessment of what counts as good and bad universalisability is probably different. But also there's the imperfectness of the logic system as represented inside a person to consider. Ideally we all determine how we feel on the inside, then determine what implication this has as an item of consideration within a wider world, then reconsider what we feel in light of these implications, either rejecting the outer implications as significant or re-evaluating the significance of the feeling, and then we choose an action. This kind of perfect consciousness probably never exists though. Every person will consciously rely more heavily on one side of the determination rather than the other.

    This raises a pair of interesting system questions. The first is whether or not Fi and Te are adequate stand-ins for one another. That is, if a person is paying close attention to their inner feeling, are they genuinely ignoring outer generalisation or is it automatically included as an unconscious part of the structure of their feeling assessment? According to Jung, it's the latter, and I guess this means you can usually talk to Fi people about universalisability of their decisions *if* you avoid implying that the feeling is misplaced. You can--possibly, maybe--join in with them on assessing non-moral consequences *if* you allow that the feeling is the feeling and it's going to be part of the landscape whether you like it or not.

    The second interesting system question is about the compatibility of the two logics. In real people the Ti/Fe and Fi/Te logics seem always to end up in different places. But do they have to? Suppose there were two people, both perfectly conscious, both ideally and fully able to access and operate the two aspects of their different judgment systems. What differences would we see in their final decisions? Would we see any differences?

    I think over time the systems may converge.

    But I don't know.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #92
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Yes, I know several Fi users like this. Makes you wonder what Fi values really are and what they stand for being that Fi is preached so much as values. Sometimes I think they just want to feel inside and this is a way they can do it.
    After reading this thread, I agree. "Fi values" doesn't fit. I want to change that to "Fi whims". There is no consistency with whims. It would be easier to grasp Fi.
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  3. #93
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The easiest way to grasp Fi, and be horrified at the consequences, is consider how you develop truths. Whatever activity or cognition you would normally write up as "think", reconsider as "feel". It doesn't show everything specific to Fi, but it does seem to indicate something of the process.

    The really super consequence of this program, a little deeper down, is whatever aspect of Fe you want respected by others will have some direct correlate in Te. In other words, if Fe really is better at producing a value system, Te really is better at truth.

    (Okay, fine. "If Fe really is better at determining effective and valuable social systems, then Te really is better at determining and representing the objective mechanisms of anything that just does operate.")
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The easiest way to grasp Fi, and be horrified at the consequences, is consider how you develop truths. Whatever activity or cognition you would normally write up as "think", reconsider as "feel". It doesn't show everything specific to Fi, but it does seem to indicate something of the process.

    The really super consequence of this program, a little deeper down, is whatever aspect of Fe you want respected by others will have some direct correlate in Te. In other words, if Fe really is better at producing a value system, Te really is better at truth.

    (Okay, fine. "If Fe really is better at determining effective and valuable social systems, then Te really is better at determining and representing the objective mechanisms of anything that just does operate.")
    I know Fi within myself, I repress it as a judgement, always have even since I was a little, never been in a position where I can use it for much. Hopefully one day I can, but until then i am stuck with Ti. I grew up in a house full of Fi. I can tell you truth is not driven by a function. What I see as truth is just a conglomeration of honest and open as opposed to lies and deciet. I dont even try to figure out the truth most of the time because the things people say or talk about I dont really even care about. Whether its a lie or not doesnt mean jack to me. When I get interested I will do my own research because I know myself, I know what my wants are, what I am good at, what I can accomplish, etc.

    I already know why Fi is seen as values, I understand why completely. I even know what makes Ti values just as much as Fi. Fi is internal truths just as much as Ti is internal truths. Some people try to tie Fi into things that is not just as they do with Ti. Like its some mystical thing. Intuition is raised up even more then Fi is. I dont understand how Fi is used to the extent that it is as I have used it very little in life for anything other then truth of myself. It doesnt steer me like my Ti does as I dont trust being steered by it and I have a love hate relationship with my Fe.

    Te and Fe are external truths, but I dont really care about external truths most of the time. To bring in my marriage, my ex had made a comment that I would leave her because she was my first girl friend and I hadnt experienced anyone else. Well, I left my marriage, I wasnt happy. To her what she said is the truth(she is ENFJ)...to me the truth is that I died inside because her focus was everywhere else. So in a way she is right, but they way I see it is if she would have actually shifted her focus I would still be married.

    I can take the same thing with MBTI and external truths vs internal truths.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #95
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I know Fi within myself, I repress it as a judgement, always have even since I was a little, never been in a position where I can use it for much. Hopefully one day I can, but until then i am stuck with Ti. I grew up in a house full of Fi. I can tell you truth is not driven by a function. What I see as truth is just a conglomeration of honest and open as opposed to lies and deciet. I dont even try to figure out the truth most of the time because the things people say or talk about I dont really even care about. Whether its a lie or not doesnt mean jack to me. When I get interested I will do my own research because I know myself, I know what my wants are, what I am good at, what I can accomplish, etc.

    I already know why Fi is seen as values, I understand why completely. I even know what makes Ti values just as much as Fi. Fi is internal truths just as much as Ti is internal truths. Some people try to tie Fi into things that is not just as they do with Ti. Like its some mystical thing. Intuition is raised up even more then Fi is. I dont understand how Fi is used to the extent that it is as I have used it very little in life for anything other then truth of myself. It doesnt steer me like my Ti does as I dont trust being steered by it and I have a love hate relationship with my Fe.
    Maybe the extra thing with Fi (and Fe) is they're affective. They are, presumably, a bitch to ignore. Subjective, objective, adequate, inadequate, appropriate or outstandingly selfish... it's all hard to assert out of existence. (Which is interesting and alarming as an idea when talking about unconscious F, but whatever.)

    I assume value system arise as motivated decisions, and I do wonder if they are not at heart quite primitive avoidance of pain or dissonance but I'm getting right into Victor territory here and that causes pain.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #96
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    but I'm getting right into Victor territory here and that causes pain.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Maybe the extra thing with Fi (and Fe) is they're affective. They are, presumably, a bitch to ignore. Subjective, objective, adequate, inadequate, appropriate or outstandingly selfish... it's all hard to assert out of existence. (Which is interesting and alarming as an idea when talking about unconscious F, but whatever.)

    I assume value system arise as motivated decisions, and I do wonder if they are not at heart quite primitive avoidance of pain or dissonance but I'm getting right into Victor territory here and that causes pain.
    LMAO in regard to bolded. I think we all learn to repress different things and by the time we are aware its already been done and no longer a bitch.

    Yes they are effective and have there place just as Ti and Te do. I have nothing against Fi, I just dont like when its forced upon others. Its more certain uses that bother me, not the function itself.
    Im out, its been fun

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  9. #99
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Thats an excellent way of explaining Fi thought processes. An Fi user is his or her own check and balance. What happens when everyone but the Fi user sees this? Granted, there is such thing as consensus and there comes a point when, to use my prior example of the ISFP, the consensus of her co-workers is that she does have a double standard. Does Fi just ignore this? How do you get an Fi Dom to see this?
    This is certainly a danger for Fi because everything is internally verified. We put little stock in the group consensus because we think it can be so easily corrupted (not that we ignore that consensus entirely).

    I can't speak for other Fi users, but I am committed to avoiding hypocrisy. This doesn't mean I always do, but I am always testing (theoretically or practically) a value or truth I ascribe to, in order to see if it works in all situations or if other actions/values contradict it. Perhaps your friends haven't developed their Si and Te sufficiently, and can't (or won't) hear your reasoning. Sometimes Fi-users ascribe to a truth/value and then in their hubris, lay back thinking that's good enough; not fully realising, or forgetting, that Fi requires constant vigilance and re-evaluation for it to work effectively.

    This doesn't mean Fi-users are stubbornly unreachable. Fi doms are known to be good listeners and are among the most open-minded types. Sometimes it's just a matter of putting things in the right words or context that it makes the information really click. See, like Ti Doms, we don't just take people's word for it; we have to see how those pieces can fit together based on our internal logic before we can properly accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Are you a communist?

    I'm just kidding, but that's where the level of discourse went in that thread.

    Sometimes opinions are needed to be heard, and other times it gets old quickly. Esp. when the proposed course of action has already taken into consideration those opinions and determined that other things trump the desires of a few individuals. There are many things that bother me or annoy me, but I don't really talk about them because it's just a personal issue. When that personal annoyance lines up with a larger problem is when I speak up (otherwise I just save it for a one time rant).
    Oh, I know what you mean. I also tired of too much pointless waffle. For me, it has to be meaningful discussion. If it starts going in circles or veers into ridiculous tangents, I start mentally wandering. The thing is, different people have different ideas about what's meaningful...

    I guess, perhaps for the NFPs anyway, we don't really distinguish between personal issues and larger problems. That's not to say we imagine our personal issues are large problems, it's just that we think a problem is a problem; no matter how big or trivial it is, it's still something on our mind worth exploring. Also, sometimes we like to talk about it simply because it's nice to have something you think or feel be affirmed and reflected in another. You know, this sort of thing:

    Person A: "I find X irritating."
    Person B: "You do? So do I! I was just thinking yesterday how annoying it is."
    Person A: "Really? I thought I was the only one who noticed."

    In the scheme of things, X might not be annoying on the same level as your car breaking down or having your wallet stolen but that's not really the point. It's more about a sense of connection and commonality. With FPs (again, maybe NFPs in particular), we often like to demonstrate empathy through talking about our own experiences in a similar situation, to show others they're not alone or just to not feel so alone ourselves.

    And like I said, often it's just talk for the sake of it - it's not necessarily a demand that something should be changed. I do understand your point that people shouldn't complain unless it's important, though. I suppose people see this as a place to discuss things, even the trivial kind, and they can get a bit carried away. 'White people's problems', you know...
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #100
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The easiest way to grasp Fi, and be horrified at the consequences, is consider how you develop truths. Whatever activity or cognition you would normally write up as "think", reconsider as "feel". It doesn't show everything specific to Fi, but it does seem to indicate something of the process.

    The really super consequence of this program, a little deeper down, is whatever aspect of Fe you want respected by others will have some direct correlate in Te. In other words, if Fe really is better at producing a value system, Te really is better at truth.

    (Okay, fine. "If Fe really is better at determining effective and valuable social systems, then Te really is better at determining and representing the objective mechanisms of anything that just does operate.")
    In terms of how someone develops truth it's all subjective. I suppose I read truth as inherent in consistency of action. It has nothing to do with good or evil, dishonesty or honesty. In fact, I believe morally corrupt people are often truthful people. At least, they have a consistency between their actions and belief system.

    My confusion with Fi has mostly stemmed from this belief. Adding the word 'values' only confused me more. But this thread has helped and @Kalach's posts too. If I think of Fi as separate from a consistency of values it makes much more sense. If it is truely like Ti, then you can't pursuade Fi users. They have to figure it out on their own. This I understand. Which, and I'm thinking aloud, is why Fi users stalemate with Fe ones. Because the strength and weakness of Fe is that it can be pursuaded.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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