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  1. #1
    heart on fire
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    Default Communicating between Fe and Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by protean
    And I'm limiting my comments to what I see on the forum, because this isn't even an issue in my real life.
    That is fortunate for you. I have had issues with being distrusted by Fe doms and my not knowing how to speak their language my whole life (that's something BW hit right on the head) and they are everwhere in abundance so not understanding them can be a sort of handicap in this world. This forum is the only place where the issue is discussed in any type of detail. That could be why it seems to be perhaps overdiscussed.

    I have been so frustrated with the "why aren't you smiling" and "why won't you open up and let us help you" stuff at jobs where I had no wish to offend or insult anyone and yet just being myself was an affront.

    I find BW's work here very helpful to understand that these people weren't being purposely invasive and pushy, they really could not help feeling or acting in these ways. That makes it a lot easier to have some sort of understanding or empathy for why they would chose to create conflict instead of simply leaving me alone as I so badly wished them to and tried to find tactful ways of letting them know.

    The anger and frustration that they often displayed over something as trvial as the smile issue puzzled me. Now it does not so much. They need external reassurance to feel like everything is okay? Well, that is hard for me to fathom but I can try harder if the truth can be talked about openly.

  2. #2
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That is fortunate for you. I have had issues with being distrusted by Fe doms and my not knowing how to speak their language my whole life (that's something BW hit right on the head) and they are everwhere in abundance so not understanding them can be a sort of handicap in this world. This forum is the only place where the issue is discussed in any type of detail. That could be why it seems to be perhaps overdiscussed.

    I have been so frustrated with the "why aren't you smiling" and "why won't you open up and let us help you" stuff at jobs where I had no wish to offend or insult anyone and yet just being myself was an affront.

    I find BW's work here very helpful to understand that these people weren't being purposely invasive and pushy, they really could not help feeling or acting in these ways. That makes it a lot easier to have some sort of understanding or empathy for why they would chose to create conflict instead of simply leaving me alone as I so badly wished them to and tried to find tactful ways of letting them know.

    The anger and frustration that they often displayed over something as trvial as the smile issue puzzled me. Now it does not so much. They need external reassurance to feel like everything is okay? Well, that is hard for me to fathom but I can try harder if the truth can be talked about openly.
    I really don't think a smile is all that trivial. A smile means so many things and it's a universal symbol of goodwill. Just like athenian brought up the point of using dollar signs and decimals, is a smile not one of those universal symbols of emotion or feeling? What does a smile mean to you? Hopefully it's not simply drawing your lips back. I will be honest with you and say that if I spoke to you and you looked at me and said nothing, I wouldn't think very much of you. Many things would fire through my head: did I do something to her? is she mad at me about something? why did she react that way?

    It also greatly depends on our relationship. If I know that's just the way you are and you're naturally a reserved person I wouldn't necessarily think much of it. I don't know how to say this without sounding like you have to smile at people because I don't walk around like a smiling idiot, but I've built up enough credibility with people that it's OK if I slip. I don't feel like every transaction I have with people needs to be deep and meaningful and oftentimes a smile is just a simple, "I acknowledge your existence."

    heart, I don't mean to be offensive but what's your body language like and in what ways do you show that while you're not comfortable being as effusive as they are you're not against them? If the EFJs you work with feel like they've tried to be friendly towards you but they perceive/think their efforts of creating a bridge are rebuffed do you think they're completely unjustified in what conclusions they've drawn? Have you spoken to them about this? No one should force their "niceness" on you, but there are some basic transactions that need to occur between people so that they don't get the wrong idea. When communicating with people, it's so easy to get the wrong idea and to run wild with it. Smiling is one of those basic things to keep people from getting the wrong idea. It's just like in the animal world to show you're not about to attack you expose your neck and outstretch your palms. Those things communicate to people that you mean no harm. These are typically very small gestures that can save you a lot of grief in the long run.

    If I see someone with a cast on their arm, can I correctly assume they've broken an arm? I'm not saying you should walk around with a smile plastered on your face but sometimes a smile well get people the hell off your case. Maybe you're throwing out body language that looks downcast and sullen and the EFJs of your acquaintance are reacting to that, just as you would assume someone with a cast has broken a bone. Do you think their efforts to "mend your broken bone" are insincere? Also, if they've made several attempts to be on friendly terms with you, maybe they really like you and keep trying hoping that one day you'll take them up on that offer to go to lunch or to a BBQ or something.

    If they go a step further and ask you what's wrong to get confirmation of what they sense (accurately or inaccurately) is wrong, how else would you propose going about it? If I see someone crying, ask why and they say "I just won 1M dollars!" then I know those are tears of joy. If I see someone crying and I ask what's wrong and they say, "My husband just died," how would I know the difference between those two types of tears unless I ask? Furthermore, if I think my attempts to clarify what I perceive as unnecessary coldness coming from another person is met with resentment and I have no clue why this resentment began I'm at a loss. I'm not one of those people that think I can psychically intuit why a person is feeling the way they are.

    So let's do this scenario: you're a coworker of mine who I don't work with directly but we see each other on a daily basis. We've bumped into each other in the bathroom, the elevator and once sat together at lunch because there were no other empty tables available. One day after work, I'm walking to my car and I see you walking to your car. I say "Good Night!" and you look at me and turn away without saying a word. I think (and I'm going to be bluntly honest here):

    1. Did you hear me?

    2. I try to remember all of our transactions together and if I did/said something to cause offense. At this point, I do think we've had enough transactions together to not be strangers so if I say good night I think it's fair for me to expect you to say good night back. I don't expect a long intimate conversation, but I do expect my existence to be acknowledged, especially when I speak to you directly.

    3. I try again. If I see you at some point in the near future I'll purposely say hello or start a small conversation and watch your response. I'll say something like, "hey, I saw you going to you car on such and such night. I hope your commute isn't as bad as mine!" I do this to see if you in fact did hear me and also to see if I can pick up any animosity coming from you towards me. If I sense nothing then I just come out with it, "yeah I said hello but maybe you didn't hear me?" You can either confirm or deny not hearing me.

    But really, I know that you saw me because we made eye contact. If you say you didn't see me then I know you're a liar and I don't have anymore dealings with you. I walk past you and ignore you and you're non-existent to me. With me, you wouldn't have to worry about me asking what's wrong cause I wouldn't care.

    If you did in fact see me, but say, "yeah, I'm sorry about that. I was having a rough day and just wanted to get home," I'd leave you alone and chalk it up to that. We all have off days and sometimes we're so lost in thought and don't see someone even if we look directly at them.

    I want to reiterate how important it is to communicate. If you are asked directly about something then why not give a brief but direct answer?

    It basically comes down to how much you want these women off your case. This is where my Fe comes in when it comes to self-preservation. I'm willing to sit with people I don't like at lunch once or twice or month just to keep larger issues of resentment and animosity from flaring up. I'm willing to bite my tongue about certain issues until I feel like I have a strong enough case to topple it. I'm willing to conceded smaller things when it comes to other people to ensure at the very least my comfort. I don't view giving up a few lunches or chatting with someone as any great losses so I'm willing to sacrifice them for my greater good.

    If you're unwilling to do that or your attempts to do that are met with resistance then you can't change your coworker's maturity level. But once again, and I'm not trying to be offensive but I have a hard time believing that every EFJ you've come into contact with has behaved in a totally immature fashion. Are you sure some of this could not be controlled by monitoring your reactions to these people?
    Last edited by proteanmix; 05-15-2008 at 06:57 PM. Reason: clarification

  3. #3
    heart on fire
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    Default Differences between Fe and Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I really don't think a smile is all that trivial. A smile means so many things and it's a universal symbol of goodwill. Just like athenian brought up the point of using dollar signs and decimals, is a smile not one of those universal symbols of emotion or feeling? What does a smile mean to you? Hopefully it's not simply drawing your lips back. I will be honest with you and say that if I spoke to you and you looked at me and said nothing, I wouldn't think very much of you. Many things would fire through my head: did I do something to her? is she mad at me about something? why did she react that way?
    First off, I don't cut people direct. There is a difference between ignoring someone and what some people seem to expect. My profile pic is an example of my typical smile for social things if I am not really feeling true joy. I don't tend to smile toothily often. My avatar reflects a typical expression for me.

    Actually a smile to me is a sign of true happiness or true humor. If I feel especially happy or something strikes me as funny, I smile as naturally as anyone else. But usually when I am just saying hello, I make eye contact and say "Hi." I don't tend to smile from ear to ear. This disturbs some people, but other people are able to accept it as my persona. The ones who won't accept it are the people I will tend to take back hallways to avoid!




    It also greatly depends on our relationship. If I know that's just the way you are and you're naturally a reserved person I wouldn't necessarily think much of it. I don't know how to say this without sounding like you have to smile at people because I don't walk around like a smiling idiot, but I've built up enough credibility with people that it's OK if I slip. I don't feel like every transaction I have with people needs to be deep and meaningful and oftentimes a smile is just a simple, "I acknowledge your existence."
    That's fine.

    heart, I don't mean to be offensive but what's your body language like and in what ways do you show that while you're not comfortable being as effusive as they are you're not against them? If the EFJs you work with feel like they've tried to be friendly towards you but they perceive/think their efforts of creating a bridge are rebuffed do you think they're completely unjustified in what conclusions they've drawn? Have you spoken to them about this?
    Yes, we spoke about it. They found the fact that I didn't chit chat disturbing. Trying to assure them that it is just my way didn't really help. I had no wish to share my personal life and problems at work.


    No one should force their "niceness" on you, but there are some basic transactions that need to occur between people so that they don't get the wrong idea. When communicating with people, it's so easy to get the wrong idea and to run wild with it. Smiling is one of those basic things to keep people from getting the wrong idea. It's just like in the animal world to show you're not about to attack you expose your neck and outstretch your palms. Those things communicate to people that you mean no harm. These are typically very small gestures that can save you a lot of grief in the long run.
    The thing is some people are never happy if they get a then pretty soon that's not enough they want to see

    If I see someone with a cast on their arm, can I correctly assume they've broken an arm? I'm not saying you should walk around with a smile plastered on your face but sometimes a smile well get people the hell off your case. Maybe you're throwing out body language that looks downcast and sullen and the EFJs of your acquaintance are reacting to that, just as you would assume someone with a cast has broken a bone. Do you think their efforts to "mend your broken bone" are insincere?
    They are the ones who are interpreting it as "downcast".

    One thing is that some extroverts can never seem to try and understand that for many introverts being bombarded by five people asking you questions at once will just shut your brain right down from too much stimulation, no matter what the introvert wants to do, the brain will lock up, will be impossible to extrovert at that moment.

    It takes me time to "warm up" in a large group to extrovert much of anything. Nothing I can do about that, I am pushing 40 and never been able to change this. But some extroverts will take this personally and react hostile and form an impression that is incorrect.



    Also, if they've made several attempts to be on friendly terms with you, maybe they really like you and keep trying hoping that one day you'll take them up on that offer to go to lunch or to a BBQ or something.
    Some of these people are family members, they've got to see me at family events.

    If they go a step further and ask you what's wrong to get confirmation of what they sense (accurately or inaccurately) is wrong, how else would you propose going about it?
    Ask once. Accept the answer given.

    Try to realize that the moment you start pushing, you become another brick in the wall shutting the introvert off. Invasiveness will shut some introverts down, lock them up. Very hard to cope with, even if they wanted to open up, they got to do it at their own pace and in their own way.



    If I see someone crying, ask why and they say "I just won 1M dollars!" then I know those are tears of joy. If I see someone crying and I ask what's wrong and they say, "My husband just died," how would I know the difference between those two types of tears unless I ask?
    Tears are pretty extreme, most people, even thinkers would ask about tears.


    Furthermore, if I think my attempts to clarify what I perceive as unnecessary coldness coming from another person is met with resentment and I have no clue why this resentment began I'm at a loss. I'm not one of those people that think I can psychically intuit why a person is feeling the way they are.
    Yes, but what about if they told you they were just that way, that they get preoccupied, that they aren't smiley people? That they just don't want to get into their personal life at work? That they just need a period of quiet time at their desk before work starts?

    So let's do this scenario: you're a coworker of mine who I don't work with directly but we see each other on a daily basis. We've bumped into each other in the bathroom, the elevator and once sat together at lunch because there were no other empty tables available. One day after work, I'm walking to my car and I see you walking to your car. I say "Good Night!" and you look at me and turn away without saying a word. I think (and I'm going to be bluntly honest here):


    1. Did you hear me?

    2. I try to remember all of our transactions together and if I did/said something to cause offense. At this point, I do think we've had enough transactions together to not be strangers so if I say good night I think it's fair for me to expect you to say good night back. I don't expect a long intimate conversation, but I do expect my existence to be acknowledged, especially when I speak to you directly.

    3. I try again. If I see you at some point in the near future I'll purposely say hello or start a small conversation and watch your response. I'll say something like, "hey, I saw you going to you car on such and such night. I hope your commute isn't as bad as mine!" I do this to see if you in fact did hear me and also to see if I can pick up any animosity coming from you towards me. If I sense nothing then I just come out with it, "yeah I said hello but maybe you didn't hear me?" You can either confirm or deny not hearing me.

    But really, I know that you saw me because we made eye contact. If you say you didn't see me then I know you're a liar and I don't have anymore dealings with you. I walk past you and ignore you and you're non-existent to me. With me, you wouldn't have to worry about me asking what's wrong cause I wouldn't care.
    I have said before I don't give people a cut direct. The problem is that is not enough. Some people expect bubbliness and consistent extroversion when I am just not that way.

    If you did in fact see me, but say, "yeah, I'm sorry about that. I was having a rough day and just wanted to get home," I'd leave you alone and chalk it up to that. We all have off days and sometimes we're so lost in thought and don't see someone even if we look directly at them.
    Then you are very different from what I am talking about here.

    [quoteI want to reiterate how important it is to communicate. If you are asked directly about something then why not give a brief but direct answer? [/quote]

    N/A

    It basically comes down to how much you want these women off your case. This is where my Fe comes in when it comes to self-preservation. I'm willing to sit with people I don't like at lunch once or twice or month just to keep larger issues of resentment and animosity from flaring up.
    I used to go to lunch with people at work too, but ya know it is just never enough. Some people will expect the bubbly thing. Then the distrust issue comes in, they react with this uncomfortable, distrust thing. It is always hard to cope with. Just is.

    I'm willing to bite my tongue about certain issues until I feel like I have a strong enough case to topple it. I'm willing to conceded smaller things when it comes to other people to ensure at the very least my comfort. I don't view giving up a few lunches or chatting with someone as any great losses so I'm willing to sacrifice them for my greater good.
    Chatting and socializing are always energy drains for me. Many extroverts will not accept this, cannot understand it. I just don't always have the energy for it. If I don't keep a certain amount of energy for my internal life, I will get frazzled and stressed out, insane, drained. There were times in my life, like the times when my parents were sick and dying, I had nothing to extrovert out with. Telling other people briefly hey I have this going on and it drains me, for some people that was not enough.

    One person (a co-worker) would get angry and tell me how she was stressed to but she smiled daily (yeah she was one of these people who always has a big smile on her face, a loud voice and always happy, happy, singing gospel songs, repeating her latest church sermond...that's fine for her, we're all different, but honestly she exhausted me and that's fine too but she remained on my case and there was no reasoning with her and she wasn't particularly caring person either, just intent on keeping social standards on others, she got hateful enough at deadline times, jumping up and down screaming at times)

    If you're unwilling to do that or your attempts to do that are met with resistance then you can't change your coworker's maturity level.
    Well, I never claimed I could!

    But once again, and I'm not trying to be offensive but I have a hard time believing that every EFJ you've come into contact with has behaved in a totally immature fashion. Are you sure some of this could not be controlled by monitoring your reactions to these people?
    I haven't said that every EFJ I have come into contact with is immature, nor have I said that they are the only difficult people I come into contact with. What I am saying is that for me, when a ESFJ is particularly overbearing or trying to exert control through persuasion or invasiveness, it is particularly difficult interpersonal exchange for me to handle. I can handle a unhealthy, cold, A-hole T somewhat better than a unhealthy Fe.

    Yes, I often to monitor my responses to these people very much, but it takes a tremendous energy toll to do so and I will avoid them as much as possible because of this and feel a lot of stress when I am forced to deal with them.

  4. #4
    heart on fire
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    I answered Protean here.

  5. #5
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    One key thing here, is that extroverts will tend to believe (and sometimes tell) introverts that there is something wrong with them, because they don't share the need to live outside their heads. Rarely does this happen the other way around (it just manifesting as annoyance/irritation at being over-shared with). There's a lot here in these posts that exhibits both, that's all I'm saying...

  6. #6
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I have had meaningful friendships with people who don't smile in response to me. My mentor of over a dozen years never even acknowledged passers-by in the hall, even when greeted. I eventually received a slight nod, which meant more than most smiles I've received. I have received some beautiful smiles filled with deceit. A smile is a symbol of goodwill and kindness, but just like words, it can be used to concoct a lie. So, if someone smiles at me in a warm and lovely fashion, or if they divert their eyes, I glean about the same amount of information - which is next to nothing until a baseline for their behavior and communication can be established. Just as there are different languages - sounds are arranged differently to convey the same meaning, so the nuances of facial and body language convey different physical languages.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    So often throughout my working life, I too have been accosted by the smile police. I preferred to work alone or in positions where I would only have to interact with others briefly. In fact I was not aware that I offended others sensibilities with my visage until I entered the workplace and found that I got the same reactions wherever I worked.

    I am not frowning...and I am not smiling either, I am working. I am not there to socialize, gossip or otherwise distract myself and others from their work. For me work involves concentration, because I am so likely to drop the ball if I do not stay attentive. Also I rarely cultivated friendships with co-workers or particpated in after work drinking/going out. I make friends very carefully; it is a big investment for me and most work relationships are the very trivial surface type pleasantries which I used to abhor. As I grew older, I found that it did pay to throw a little fake glee around to satisfy those needing to see it. I also tried to assemble a collection of non-commital, non-offending generic responses to workaday questions that would keep me from seeming too aloof, which I learned the hard way people just do not like and are offended by...I still do not understand this, but I know that it is a reality, however selfish on their part. I am doing my job...I didn't sign up to be anybodies source of entertainment. My focus on the task at hand should express all that anyone needs to know about me in the workplace.

    I certainly don't go out of my way to directly insult or ignore people. I always exchange a greeting at least. There are people that this just does not satisfy and they for some inexplicable reason seem to feel that I need to know a great deal more about them than time, propriety or patience can reasonably allow. If you open the door even a crack, they jam their foot in and won't leave. And if you are around these people enough I find that they really aren't interested in anyone in any significant way, just what an interaction with you will yield them in terms of social currency (gossip).

    Of course once you elect to go into a management position you have to play this game, and the insincerity of this makes me quite uncomfortable. I don't like to "play" people and I am not good at it. I try to be straight up and truthful, just-the-facts. As a result I tend to believe that others will afford me the same courtesy in exchange but of course, no...or very rarely.

    Then there is the aggressive almost insulting insistence that you must be "sad" or "angry" and in general just not "right". That somehow, just by existing as you do that you will inconvenience the populace at large with your gratuitous displays of discontent. Great, thanks...now I feel better since you pointed that out to me.

    I am still learning about the MBTI aspects of this (one of the reasons that I am here) and I value Protean's remarks as instructive but I indentify closely with Heart on this.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  8. #8
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Hmm.

    A smile coming from me usually means that I'm confused. "Just smile and nod" is the phrase, and for me it's automatic. It's an automatic response to shock, embarrassment and generally being too serious -- it makes me seem a lot more friendly than I really am, because these sorts of things happen too often. People don't understand that my smiles are usually either out of bewilderment or out of being too caught up in something that I think is funny. Usually they seriously think that I'm happy to see them and continue bothering me with things that they think will 'make me smile' even though making me smile is not necessarily a good thing.

    I have horrible, horrible control over my facial expression. I'd prefer not to be judged by it but unfortunately if people are paying any attention to you at all, that's what they're doing.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #9
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I answered Protean here.
    I might just have to go back to Heart's post to Protean that she moved to the Fi/Fe thread but I'm almost positive she mentioned ESFJ's. I know Lookin4 will say I'm harping but PEOPLE FOR GOD SAKE just because we are both primary function Fe does not mean ESFJ's and ENFJ's experience Fe in the same way. There are just so many more ESFJ's around I really think people don't know many ENFJ's and assume some of the ESFJ's they meet are ENFJ's...we're not all that plentiful. (and this was about ENFJ's which is why I'm bringing this up)

    If someone that I know happens not to smile at me when I greet them I just keep going. I may think to myself..."are they ok?" and sometimes (depending on how close we are I'll ask.."are you ok?" or if we're really close I'll just know something is wrong and I'll raise an eyebrow or give them some look..if they talk they talk if they don't I leave it until they ar ready if they ever do actually talk.

    If I don't know the person and I greet them and they don't say anything or smile or acknowledge my greeting (which, sorry Heart, in the workplace when someone says good morning...just good manners to say good morning back...I'm not saying you have to get into a "how was the weekend how's the kids? blah blah" but just acknowledging the greeting is business proper..for ANY type) I will keep walking and it won't even bother me. If I see them again the next day and in several further encounters and say something in greeting or smile at them and they look thru me...that's the last they have to worry about my greeting them. (I agree Protean) It's their problem (or not) and it makes no never mind to me. I tend to shy away from asking people their business because they seem to find me and tell me anyway....no mater if I want to know or not.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  10. #10
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    If I don't know the person and I greet them and they don't say anything or smile or acknowledge my greeting (which, sorry Heart, in the workplace when someone says good morning...just good manners to say good morning back....


    Did you even bother to read my reply to Protean? I mean really read it?

    No where have I said that I cut people who speak to me. If someone says hello I say hello back.

    Sorry to sound so sharp here, but it is really frustrating to make something clear and have people simply paint their own assumptions right over it anyway.

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