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  1. #81
    heart on fire
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    What seems to still be eluding the issue here is the true content of what is being said. I think most non-Fe understand to some degree what the Fe wants from them, but the question is one of energy to extrovert this consistently.

    If you are an introvert who has the energy play social ping-pong all day, I am truly happy for you, but for some introverts this is not realistic and there doesn't seem to be a way to tell *some* Fe this in a way they will accept. They continue to try and "help" the introvert "get over" their "problem" by continuing to explain and at times demand their social rituals.

    Even in this thread there are comments that there needs to be smiling and it better not be fake, because no one wants a fake smile or that is going to put people off and that hello must be said in the exact right and sincere tone with the exact right look to the face.

  2. #82
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    This is a fascinating thread. I'm Fe, but can relate to both sides of this discussion. I've been bugged by chatty hygienists and hairdressers; FL's suggestion about saying he needed time to rehearse a presentation was pure genius. In general, both of those professions attract Es, but my current stylist is INT and the difference between her and others I've had is amazing. There's no chit-chat, which doesn't put me off, but is noticeable by its absence.

    When folks get together for a family occasion, I expect (OK, like) a certain level of interaction. Last night we attended a small birthday dinner for my husband's uncle, a gathering that included all the relatives who don't talk much. I asked my MIL about her upcoming vacation - she had one sentence to say about it. My husband asked his brother about his new job - ditto. The food came and the cake was cut, but like many other family dinners we've had over the years, not much was discussed. It wasn't unpleasant, just a bit awkward and quiet. For them, sharing a meal seems to be the most important part.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  3. #83
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Fake is fine with me if it's just your basic butt-sniffing.

    Social species just have this stuff. I'm not saying that I like it, that I always want to play it, that I always do play it, or I'm always good at it when I try.

    What I'm saying is that it is. Like it, don't like it, play it, don't play it. Whatever. You can't truly get out of it unless you're a mountain man or something. The best you can do is manage it and try to minimize the damage. Or accept the damage as the price of not playing.

    I have a love/hate relationship with it myself.

    Sometimes people really are rude and invasive and it's not just your standard social-species passing the time of day. When that is the case, it is not Fe working properly, it is an aggressive person invading your space and they need a back off signal sent to them.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What seems to still be eluding the issue here is the true content of what is being said. I think most non-Fe understand to some degree what the Fe wants from them, but the question is one of energy to extrovert this consistently.

    If you are an introvert who has the energy play social ping-pong all day, I am truly happy for you, but for some introverts this is not realistic and there doesn't seem to be a way to tell *some* Fe this in a way they will accept. They continue to try and "help" the introvert "get over" their "problem" by continuing to explain and at times demand their social rituals.

    Even in this thread there are comments that there needs to be smiling and it better not be fake, because no one wants a fake smile or that is going to put people off and that hello must be said in the exact right and sincere tone with the exact right look to the face.
    I just figure it's a trade-off thing. If you want a little from them, then give a little in return. If you want a lot, then give a lot. If you don't want anything at all, then bring along a book and ignore them while you read it.

    Even the metaphor of ping-pong is just an approximation. Once or twice I've been at loggerheads with my ENFJ boss in an important conflict (me = Fi, him = Fe). We were both squeezing each other trying to extract concessions and getting nowhere; I finally noticed that he was starting to squirm and look wounded and I realized that I really was hurting him by refusing to give him some basic concessions that he simply had to have in his role as the boss. In that sense Fi can perhaps be more brutal than Fe; Fi can pursue its end past the point of reasonableness, whereas Fe seems to be more about reasonable trade-offs.

    So I've worked out this metaphor of gamesmanship, to help remind me to "play fair" with my boss and remember to work toward a compromise rather than simply win at all costs. That seems to work better.

    But that's my answer to your concern. Figure out how much you're willing to give versus how much you need to get in return. That seems to be the best way for Fi to deal with Fe. Go ahead and contest their claim if it goes contrary to your own needs; but remember to work out some kind of compromise in the end. Otherwise, it could come down to a real grudge match. Fe types seem to have "social imperatives" that are every bit as fixed and immovable as the "personal imperatives" of Fi types. After all, they're both judging functions.

    So use that "reasonable trade-off" aspect of Fe to do some horse-trading, blunt their demands on you, and get some concessions in return. Anyway, that's what I'm learning from interactions with my new boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    FL's suggestion about saying he needed time to rehearse a presentation was pure genius.
    Thanks!

  5. #85
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    We were both squeezing each other trying to extract concessions and getting nowhere; I finally noticed that he was starting to squirm and look wounded and I realized that I really was hurting him by refusing to give him some basic concessions that he simply had to have in his role as the boss. In that sense Fi can perhaps be more brutal than Fe; Fi can pursue its end past the point of reasonableness, whereas Fe seems to be more about reasonable trade-offs.
    So I've worked out this metaphor of gamesmanship, to help remind me to "play fair" with my boss and remember to work toward a compromise rather than simply win at all costs. That seems to work better.

    But that's my answer to your concern. Figure out how much you're willing to give versus how much you need to get in return. That seems to be the best way for Fi to deal with Fe. Go ahead and contest their claim if it goes contrary to your own needs; but remember to work out some kind of compromise in the end. Otherwise, it could come down to a real grudge match.
    Fe types seem to have "social imperatives" that are every bit as fixed and immovable as the "personal imperatives" of Fi types. After all, they're both judging functions.
    So use that "reasonable trade-off" aspect of Fe to do some horse-trading, blunt their demands on you, and get some concessions in return. Anyway, that's what I'm learning from interactions with my new boss.
    This is prob the most reasonable response and the most fair. I think Fi types tend to forget that Fe is not the bad guy and Fi the superhero. I asked my former (female) INFP roommate, my INFP sister my INFP (female) cousin and my (male) INFP friend what they thought of this thread and each said what Fine Line said here. They don't know tons about cognitive functions only basically what I've discussed with them, but they do know enough to recognize their own Fi, introverted prejudices in (as my sister said and not my words at all) an aggressive, negative, and really very snobby tone that she felt some have presented their arguments) I just called and read her Fine Line's response and she cheered for FineLine and asked what type FineLine was..when I responded INFP she cheered and said..See we ARE the best!

    Seriously though. Thank you FineLine for describing what has been my experience with Fi dom types. Except I truly don't make a big deal about it..does it annoy me...absolutely when it seems like you can never be right ever... but I don't like living in a constant state of annoyance so I have learned coping stratagies so that I can live and work alongside the introverts and Fi dom people that I have in my life without feeling like I'm always giving in to demands that they often times don't realize they are placing on me.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  6. #86
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Yeah, extraverts tend to treat meals as a time to socialize, while introverts may want to use them for downtime.

    There's an easy solution for that. Just bring a book to meals with you. If anyone sits down with you, chat with them for a minute to be polite, then pat the book and say "Sorry to interrupt, but I have to cram a chapter for work/school/a social event I'm attending after work. Hope you don't mind." Then open the book and pretend to read a few sentences.

    When I used to eat in the cafeteria at work, I always brought a book and it effectively became my "do not disturb" sign.

    Here's a similar situation:

    A dental hygienist at my dentist's office would chat endlessly while she was cleaning my teeth. So I told her that I was giving a lecture at work and needed to go over my speech in my head and make sure I had it fully memorized. I closed my eyes, she shut up, and I dozed a bit until she finished up.

    Thereafter, I posed as some kind of lecturer, always working on a new speech whenever I visited the dentist's office.
    Books and headphones may work for you, but they have never worked for me.

    For some reason, it's a sign for people to try harder to crack open the 'shell.' Like it's a tease, like it's a sign that I'm perfect game. I've even gotten yelled at for bringing books to the table outside of my home, with people I barely knew. That, I would have to say, is intrusive.

    I don't understand why dentists try to talk to you, anyway -- your mouth is full of metallic equipment, how the fuck are you supposed to answer? Is that not unreasonable?

    Conversation may be good for me, but I've never deliberately used it as an attempt to 'connect,' I've just used it to relay information. People trying to connect will find quickly that I'm not immediately interested in connecting, and most of the times that will make them try harder. How hard people try is inversely proportional to how well they know me. If they've known me for a few years, they'll know that what they're attempting is futile. If they haven't, though, they'll dig.

    Once conversation takes a turn for the 'natural' I may be able to contribute like a 'natural,' but even so, it's not about 'connecting,' even then. Even if it ends up being good or even interesting conversation, there's always that initial struggle. I am not going to simply lay down and be poked and prodded. Ever. Once the feeling of obligation has long since passed, I may oblige, but most of the times it feels like it never gets past that...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    This is prob the most reasonable response and the most fair. I think Fi types tend to forget that Fe is not the bad guy and Fi the superhero. I asked my former (female) INFP roommate, my INFP sister my INFP (female) cousin and my (male) INFP friend what they thought of this thread and each said what Fine Line said here. They don't know tons about cognitive functions only basically what I've discussed with them, but they do know enough to recognize their own Fi, introverted prejudices in (as my sister said and not my words at all) an aggressive, negative, and really very snobby tone that she felt some have presented their arguments) I just called and read her Fine Line's response and she cheered for FineLine and asked what type FineLine was..when I responded INFP she cheered and said..See we ARE the best!

    Seriously though. Thank you FineLine for describing what has been my experience with Fi dom types. Except I truly don't make a big deal about it..does it annoy me...absolutely when it seems like you can never be right ever... but I don't like living in a constant state of annoyance so I have learned coping stratagies so that I can live and work alongside the introverts and Fi dom people that I have in my life without feeling like I'm always giving in to demands that they often times don't realize they are placing on me.
    Good! Nice message LLNF!

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I've lost a lot of my faith in Fi across the years.

    I've seen plenty of times when I was younger when my own Fi was just plain wrong. And even today I can start out with a good Fi impulse and carry it (in argument or implementation) past the point of reasonableness. Also, I've seen INFPs both in real life and on the INFP-gc message board who just seemed to have some very naive, defeatist, or just plain wacko Fi values. The mere fact that there are so many different and even contradictory Fi values exhibited on INFP-gc should be proof in and of itself that Fi can be (and often is) just plain wrong.

    Two of the most important things I've learned across the years: 1) To recognize when I'm slipping into INFP "crusading mode" and to make an effort to moderate my speech and actions, no matter how justified I may feel; and 2) To learn to recognize when I'm wrong, back down, admit I screwed up, and quickly work to repair ties with people before they're lost for good.

    Fi has an important place in the spectrum of functions as an internal guide. But it has to recognize the primacy of the external world to be truly useful. Left to free-float with no input from the external world, it turns sour. (Same with all the introverted functions, to one degree or another.)

    I can't say as much about the strengths and weaknesses of Fe; most Fe-Doms in my past acquaintance have been friends or subordinates, i.e. people and relationships where I've been able to enjoy the upside without worrying too much about the downside. Having an ENFJ as my direct boss (and specifically one with whom I'm often in conflict due to the nature of our positions) is exposing me to a whole new dynamic with an Fe Dom, and I'm kind of waiting to see how it turns out over the long-term.

    But overall I have to say that I'm impressed with the guy. Like I said earlier, sometimes I get a little rush of adrenaline when he hits me with his Fe on full, and we get into gamesmanship to work through our conflicts. But in the end, once all our cards are on the table, I have to give him his due. Our business together concerns work matters and the external world, and he is well-grounded there. When it comes to work matters, I would be crazy to simply impose my Fi over his Fe. He knows whereof he speaks. If something is important to him, then it's probably important for me to at least take it into consideration in some fashion as well.

  8. #88
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I don't like this simile of comparing Fe games to a pingpong match.

    I'd say it's more like fencing. Good sport and good competition, but if your opponent is resisting play, continuing is no different than going after him with a pointy stick.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Books and headphones may work for you, but they have never worked for me.

    For some reason, it's a sign for people to try harder to crack open the 'shell.' Like it's a tease, like it's a sign that I'm perfect game. I've even gotten yelled at for bringing books to the table outside of my home, with people I barely knew. That, I would have to say, is intrusive.
    At first I was going to suggest that you're engaging in some hyperbole. They literally yell at you? But then I recalled that you're quite a bit younger than me (I'm in my 50s). If you're still in your teens or early 20s, people could well yell at you. People see a youngster playing the introvert, and they take it upon themselves to bully him into socializing for his own good.

    A couple more years will make a big difference. People will grant you more room to call your own shots and determine how you want to use your own time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I don't understand why dentists try to talk to you, anyway -- your mouth is full of metallic equipment, how the fuck are you supposed to answer? Is that not unreasonable?
    I guess it's "a dentist thing."

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Conversation may be good for me, but I've never deliberately used it as an attempt to 'connect,' I've just used it to relay information. People trying to connect will find quickly that I'm not immediately interested in connecting, and most of the times that will make them try harder. How hard people try is inversely proportional to how well they know me. If they've known me for a few years, they'll know that what they're attempting is futile. If they haven't, though, they'll dig.

    Once conversation takes a turn for the 'natural' I may be able to contribute like a 'natural,' but even so, it's not about 'connecting,' even then. Even if it ends up being good or even interesting conversation, there's always that initial struggle. I am not going to simply lay down and be poked and prodded. Ever. Once the feeling of obligation has long since passed, I may oblige, but most of the times it feels like it never gets past that...
    Well, that's not bad. At least you're conversing occasionally.

    Again, a couple more years should help. People will get off your back and give you some space, and then hopefully you'll find your own reasons to seek out more conversational opportunities.

    I grant it's tough to see the value of an uncomfortable skill when everyone is forcing it on you from all sides. For now it's enough that you have some occasional success with the 'natural' conversations. Later when you get some breathing room, you can build from that foundation at your leisure.

  10. #90
    heart on fire
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    Good grief, how many times can I say, I am not talking about snobbing people or cutting them direct, yet the Fe keep turning the conversation back to that extreme. I was talking about lack of bubbliness and ear slitting grins and yet we keep going back to some idea of being totally withdrawn and unsocial. I am LMAO at this point on that part. It is impossible for some people to seperate the finer points of it I suppose.

    I do recognize that I cannot be as introverted at places like work that I might like to be, but I would also like some understanding that I cannot be as extroverted as some might wish either. Surely there is a happy medium for both sides.

    I suppose I could at this point up the off board INFP sister and say that my INFJ husband said some of the arguements presented on the other side sounded "off balance and lacking perspective"...lol. Seriously, I am finding that part of the previous post hillarious. I am gonna call my ISTJ sister and get her input maybe, up the leverage of my argument.

    One thing that is getting lost here too, is I am talking about a minority of a certain type of Fe persona that seems to create troubles out of proportion to the situation. I am not having these same difficulties with every single person I meet. Many people can accept a "quiet" person as they are, but there are some people who get invasive and pushy beyond belief.

    I don't think most dentists really expect responses back when they are drilling, they are just talking to comfort people I think. As long as they keep it clean and don't get snarky, I don't care how much the dentist babbles at me. I am on Dramamine at the dentist, totally out of it. Can't converse much like that anyway...

    an effort to moderate my speech and actions, no matter how justified I may feel;
    I agree. Crusading at work would mostly be really bad manners, much like talking religion or politics or making passes.

    Quote Originally Posted by fineline
    I just figure it's a trade-off thing. If you want a little from them, then give a little in return. If you want a lot, then give a lot. If you don't want anything at all, then bring along a book and ignore them while you read it.
    It seems to be a woman to woman thing in my experience. And the choice for some of them is not the choice to give a little, they push and push for more.

    I have never had a problem like this with men. Some Te men will accuse me of not paying attention at times, but usually they can be put at ease by repeating back what they have said to me and showing them that yes, I have been paying attention.

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