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  1. #71
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Oh. So non-Fe types always feel like I (a working class Yankee) felt when we lived in married student housing at a seminary in Kentucky where there were lots of middle and upper middle class women who did things like have tea parties where hats where worn?

    Minding my own business and not bothering anyone was not good enough. Not even close. I lasted less than a year there. Went running back to my hometown where I know the rules and I don't know what it would take to pry me away from here again.

    What a nightmare.

    You do have to learn the rules of where you are, though. Work, school, church, in-laws, etc. Maybe finding a kind person with primary or secondary Fe in the places you have to know the rules for and asking them to take you under their wing and explain the unwritten rules (for they are legion) would be helpful. I'm going to use that tip myself, when I have to enter the workforce in a few years, I think.

    I don't consider smiling and saying I'm fine when someone asks fake or lying, FWIW. I'm merely responding to the real intent of the question rather than the specific words. The intent is "I acknowledge your existence so we can proceed with politely ignoring one another. Please respond by acknowledging my existence so I can be done with this obligation and the ignoring can begin."
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Oh. So non-Fe types always feel like I (a working class Yankee) felt when we lived in married student housing at a seminary in Kentucky where there were lots of middle and upper middle class women who did things like have tea parties where hats where worn?

    Minding my own business and not bothering anyone was not good enough. Not even close. I lasted less than a year there. Went running back to my hometown where I know the rules and I don't know what it would take to pry me away from here again.

    What a nightmare.

    You do have to learn the rules of where you are, though. Work, school, church, in-laws, etc. Maybe finding a kind person with primary or secondary Fe in the places you have to know the rules for and asking them to take you under their wing and explain the unwritten rules (for they are legion) would be helpful. I'm going to use that tip myself, when I have to enter the workforce in a few years, I think.
    Yep, exactly. I learned my Fe skills living in an open squadbay setting in the Marines for years. One of the benefits of that setting was the collision of cultures: Blacks, Hispanics, Whites, northerners, southerners, westerners, city kids, farm kids, gang members, etc.

    The different cultures set their boundaries (in-bounds, out-of-bounds) at different distances and places. It led to a lot of confusion and aggravation at times (culture clash), and there was a need to ask questions and work out some common rules. So I was able to see the rules being worked out right in front of my face, ask questions of others without fear of embarrassment, practice certain types of confrontation with the understanding that I was not necessarily going to be good at them, etc.

    I think the best attitude to take is to recognize that it does take practice and that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. With that in mind, it's okay to admit to others that you're not an outgoing person by nature and to ask questions. For example: "Help me out. I don't understand what those guys were doing. Why were those two guys insulting each other--I thought they were friends? And how come they didn't get into a fistfight--they suddenly just stopped and walked away? What was going on there?"

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't consider smiling and saying I'm fine when someone asks fake or lying, FWIW. I'm merely responding to the real intent of the question rather than the specific words. The intent is "I acknowledge your existence so we can proceed with politely ignoring one another. Please respond by acknowledging my existence so I can be done with this obligation and the ignoring can begin."
    Exactly right. A greeting has a certain specific form. It's highly stylized, largely empty of content, but still quite important. It may seem insincere, but it plays critical role in the maintenance of ties and relations. And the form reflects the function.

    Sincerity or insincerity has nothing to do with greetings. One might as well ask about the sincerity or insincerity of fixing a leaky faucet or washing the dishes. It's not about sincerity; it's about upkeep and maintenance. It's about keeping the house (social relations) running properly and avoiding catastrophic breakdowns from neglect.

  3. #73
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Exactly right. A greeting has a certain specific form. It's highly stylized, largely empty of content, but still quite important. It may seem insincere, but it plays critical role in the maintenance of ties and relations. And the form reflects the function.

    Sincerity or insincerity has nothing to do with greetings. One might as well ask about the sincerity or insincerity of fixing a leaky faucet or washing the dishes. It's not about sincerity; it's about upkeep and maintenance. It's about keeping the house (social relations) running properly and avoiding catastrophic breakdowns from neglect.
    Mmm hmmm. Just the human equivalent to butt sniffing in dogs. If you growl, cower, cringe, etc you're going to get a second look. If you sniff and move on, you're generally out of the woods.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Mmm hmmm. Just the human equivalent to butt sniffing in dogs.
    When you get rid of the frills and window dressing of civilization--yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If you growl, cower, cringe, etc you're going to get a second look. If you sniff and move on, you're generally out of the woods.
    That gets into the area of dominance and pecking order. Those things can fall under Fe in its application as a social organization tool. That's advanced use of Fe--very much a part of my study when I was in the Marines.

  5. #75
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    When you get rid of the frills and window dressing of civilization--yeah...



    That gets into the area of dominance and pecking order. Those things can fall under Fe in its application as a social organization tool. That's advanced use of Fe--very much a part of my study when I was in the Marines.
    True, true. Dog hierarchy is simple and rigid by comparison, but it's still very much there.

    The theory of the social dance in any species or society is fascinating to me. IRL is where it can be kind of a pain in the rear.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #76
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I strongly disagree with that. You sound as if FJs are mostly ignorant of any cues the other person is sending out; it's an imposition of the FJs desire to connect with a person regardless of if they want the connection or not.

    I once again ask you to look at how often this really happens to you. You've already mentioned that you have an low tolerance for "chit chatting" and "small talk." I don't find that people do that much digging into other people, most are so caught up in their own concerns and cares to be nosing around in others that much other than the superficial (when I say superficial, I mean surface NOT artificial).

    If you know you have a low tolerance for something, is it really another's fault that you find what most people are tolerant of intolerable? Have you taken stock of how accommodating people are of your needs? Are your needs reasonable? Do you have unfair expectation of people responding to your needs? How willing are you to respond to theirs?

    I think these are all questions you should be asking yourself before you make such a claim. Oftentimes when I've tried to step back from a situation I've come up lacking in what my expectations and how feasible they are. I can't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate me if I've got an unusually high need for something. It's just not fair.
    How often is this really happening -- whenever I'm forced into a social situation.

    I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...

    It turns into an obligation that they get to know me, so it's much, much more difficult to just decide, "Oh, they don't want to talk," when you ask somebody how's your day when you're passing them in the hallway. As much as I like food at restaurants, I almost dread going because I know that the other person will be interrogating me over the meal. It's like they can't stand any silence.

    And what's worse is when they're relatives, because coworkers and peers may eventually figure that "oh, they think they're too good for me," and stop pestering, but for family it's even more of an obligation because, hell, they're you're family, you're supposed to know about them and everything about them and keep up with them because that's just the RIGHT thing to do.

    Essentially, you're in a social-convention catch-22. You're trapped by the convention that you just can't walk out on people, but you find you have to fight because of your own fear of being trapped. And there's nothing you can do about it, because it's absolutely normal.

    Oh, I'm well aware that my expectations are entirely unreasonable -- there's a reason social convention is there, so that people know how to act without others getting mad at them, and yet, when they approach me, all of the sudden something that doesn't get people angry has made me morose and ill-tempered, and they have absolutely no idea why. There is no way of knowing this until you know somebody in depth, and according to convention, you can't get to the 'deep talk' without talking the 'light talk' first.

    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    IRL is where it can be kind of a pain in the rear.
    Eh. Just keep in mind that it's just ping-pong.

    In animals and young children (and sometimes in the push-comes-to-shove world of the lower ranks of the Marine Corps), dominance and pecking order are often worked out in simple, brutal terms--who is the biggest and strongest and has the biggest fists.

    But in adult-level social and work environments, social order is more often worked out via Fe (when not otherwise regulated by Te rules and regulations).

    Sometimes there is a problem with that. When Fe pressure is applied in social settings, non-Fe types register it, they do a flashback to kindergarten and being bullied in the playground (the more primitive form of dominance and pecking order), and they freeze up in terror.

    So Fe gets a bad name. Fe gets branded with the label of "manipulation." In turn, when they hear the label "manipulation," Fe-Dominant types cry foul; they're not trying to abuse anyone for personal gain; they're just trying to take a bunch of unorganized people and herd them in the direction of a productive goal for the good of the people themselves.

    I think the key to getting over one's fear of Fe is to recognize it for what it is: a game of ping-pong. Pick up the paddle and play the game. No one's beating anyone up or kicking sand in their face. It's just a little mental game-playing to arrive at mutually satisfactory end.

    My new boss is an ENFJ and I have a great time interacting with him, especially when we have opposing objectives. He's great at what he does, and it's fun to see the interaction. It's like a poker game--with bluffing, raising the stakes, hiding and revealing cards, dealing kicker cards, but in the end almost always resulting in a sharing of the pot. Give a little to get a little.

    I always get a little burst of adrenaline when my boss turns his Fe full blast on me--kind of a wrench of fear in my guts that he's going to bulldoze over me. But then the fun of the contest takes over, and we're off to the races.

    It's even better than a Ne duel with an ENTP.

  8. #78
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    How often is this really happening -- whenever I'm forced into a social situation.

    I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...

    It turns into an obligation that they get to know me, so it's much, much more difficult to just decide, "Oh, they don't want to talk," when you ask somebody how's your day when you're passing them in the hallway. As much as I like food at restaurants, I almost dread going because I know that the other person will be interrogating me over the meal. It's like they can't stand any silence.

    And what's worse is when they're relatives, because coworkers and peers may eventually figure that "oh, they think they're too good for me," and stop pestering, but for family it's even more of an obligation because, hell, they're you're family, you're supposed to know about them and everything about them and keep up with them because that's just the RIGHT thing to do.

    Essentially, you're in a social-convention catch-22. You're trapped by the convention that you just can't walk out on people, but you find you have to fight because of your own fear of being trapped. And there's nothing you can do about it, because it's absolutely normal.

    Oh, I'm well aware that my expectations are entirely unreasonable -- there's a reason social convention is there, so that people know how to act without others getting mad at them, and yet, when they approach me, all of the sudden something that doesn't get people angry has made me morose and ill-tempered, and they have absolutely no idea why. There is no way of knowing this until you know somebody in depth, and according to convention, you can't get to the 'deep talk' without talking the 'light talk' first.

    Have you tried saying something like "I'm doing good. How's life/work/school, etc been treating you?"

    If you can just manage to turn the tables and become the interviewer instead of the interviewee you get to halfway listen while you stuff your face. Most people love to talk about themselves. Practice saying your 'I'm listening, please go on' noises: "really?" "uh huh" "huh!" "hmm" and a few canned questions.

    They might just be asking you stuff in hopes that you will ask them about their _______ and they can blather on about it because they think it's the best thing since sliced bread. They want you to hit the ball back so they can show off how good they are with it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I'm one of those people who is always 'around' and sometimes even considered 'competent' but people don't know me at all. I don't talk to them unless it's absolutely necessary. Now, this is fine in a work or task-based environment but whenever it's more relaxed and more 'social' people try to get me 'involved.' So you're sitting there, probably with food in front of you so you can't leave, and there are these people asking you questions... and you're trying to eat and you're trying to figure out what tastes good and what doesn't, how to ration out the beverage so you'll have enough, and yet, these people are STILL trying to get you to talk, thinking that that's more important than the food, and they're asking questions of things you either don't think about or don't want to think about or don't know about or just plain don't want to tell them, and it's impossible to tune it all out...
    Yeah, extraverts tend to treat meals as a time to socialize, while introverts may want to use them for downtime.

    There's an easy solution for that. Just bring a book to meals with you. If anyone sits down with you, chat with them for a minute to be polite, then pat the book and say "Sorry to interrupt, but I have to cram a chapter for work/school/a social event I'm attending after work. Hope you don't mind." Then open the book and pretend to read a few sentences.

    When I used to eat in the cafeteria at work, I always brought a book and it effectively became my "do not disturb" sign.

    Here's a similar situation:

    A dental hygienist at my dentist's office would chat endlessly while she was cleaning my teeth. So I told her that I was giving a lecture at work and needed to go over my speech in my head and make sure I had it fully memorized. I closed my eyes, she shut up, and I dozed a bit until she finished up.

    Thereafter, I posed as some kind of lecturer, always working on a new speech whenever I visited the dentist's office.

  10. #80
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Books are great social shields. So are iPods. I regularly shop and occasionally eat at restaurants with my headphones on. When I go for a walk in my neighborhood, if I'm not in the mood to chat, instead of my earbuds, I wear my big, ugly black headphones. Usually works.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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