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  1. #61
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    You find the dictionary definition subjective?

    Anyway, a corrupted seed planted today, because one didn't want to create waves, will grow a corrupted tree and there is no telling what kind of fruit it will grow when mature. This is why it is dangerous to let corrupted judgement slide, it is not a loving thing to do when one looks at it long term.
    I think you're just reacting too much to the idea you have in mind, without really comprehending what I'm talking about. Your reaction makes no sense to someone like me, given the examples I just showed you.

    You also jumped from flawed to corrupt. The two are not the same thing.

    What is this? Corrupted tree? Corrupted fruit? Are you just invoking biblical imagery to justify your feelings, when you don't even understand what you're arguing? An abstraction and a feeling that's so wide it no longer clearly refers to any specific situation that I can comprehend.

    How on earth am I supposed to communicate with someone who won't even try to make sense or specify their meaning in a terms of a perceptible situation?

  2. #62
    heart on fire
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    All I can say at this point is LOL. I am not trying to *justify* anything to do, you believe what you wish to.

    If you are okay with accepting and excusing messed up judgement in the people around you, that's your affair, but I am just expressing that I find it highly disturbing when people do this. Excusing flawed, corrupt, bad whatever you wish to call it, judgement is just leaving the door open for bad decisions, which snowball into bad outcomes and then everyone is shrugging their shoulders wondering why such a bad outcome when the intentions were good and everyone was feeling so good and happy!

    The implication was not meant to be Biblical, I forgot that phrase even has Biblical reference.

    So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.

  3. #63
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Conversation must be consensual. People who try to start off conversations may be trying to find conversation anywhere they can get it, but if I say NO, that means NO, and that should be respected. If somebody doesn't want to converse, they shouldn't be forced to converse through all the rules that polite society has set up for them -- for example, absolutely having to answer inane questions that hold no value for them rather than just being able to say 'I don't want to talk'.

    Conversation should not be forced on people. I cannot recount the number of times I've been forced into conversation and even confrontation because it was the 'polite' and 'right' thing to do. People just don't understand that not everyone is always up for conversation. I'd wager to say that I'm never up for conversation on other people's terms. And I'd rather not have conversation forced upon me by people who are just trying to 'care'. It's unpleasant, awkward, forced, and downright painful. But of course, it's just about their own needs. What rape isn't?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #64
    Member Buds of May's Avatar
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    Hey. Athenian200 & Proteanmix. Smile, at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    probably was trying to manipulate you into admitting it up front?
    No. It's a serious question.



    Heart, your foundation analogy fits well. Nothing wrong with using a good analogy from religion, or a similar one.

  5. #65
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    This thread is fascinating.

    I guess I'm most surprised by so many non-Fe doms thinking Fe-dom's demand and expect openness from the other party, and that to appease the Fe-dom, some sort of 'fakeness' needs to be projected by the other party. (I'm over-simplifying what has been discussed, but these are a few of the themes I glossed over).

    If anything I desire realness and genuineness. I don't want to see a fake smile just to appease me (and I'd probably recognize it as fake anyway, and then I'd back away). Yeah, I might ask questions of others, and if someone looks down, I might probe a bit to find out why -- because I care and sometimes people just need to talk things out. But if the other person clams up, or bristles, or whatever, I'll detect that, back away, and leave them alone. It's certainly no joy for me to 'force' someone to discuss what they don't want to discuss, and it's not like I can force something anyway. I want them to WANT to open up -- and if they don't, then that's their choice, and that's that. I'm not bothered by negative emotions, as I experience them as well, so I can understand and get it. Also, since I'm fairly introverted myself, I get the whole thing where people just need their space and sometimes don't want to have anything to do with anyone else, and just want to stick to their own world - cause I do that too. So there's nothing in me that expects or demands anyone else to be cheery or put a good face on all of the time. And on my end, with those I have a reasonably good relationship with, whether at work or outside of work, I too show my negative emotions - sadness, anxiety, whatever -- but I certainly don't have any expectations that the other person then open up in kind.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ...So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.
    The parallels are uncanny, Heart. Somewhere else this morning, I was insinuating that flaws in the assumptions of a philosophy automatically reduce the potential positive outcome of following that philosophy. (i.e., flaws in the foundation of the system impact maximum efficiency/accuracy).

    It is like the more impersonal version of what you said here.

    Meanwhile, PM and Hap, thank you for discussing this so openly, it's fascinating to try and understand better the dynamics involved. Definitely an eye-opener.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I can see that Fes don't expect people to be cheery all the time, but think about it this way -- if somebody doesn't respond, it's immediately assumed that something's wrong. Fe gets very upset when other people are upset, and tries to help them, but by helping them, they're actually digging deeper into what the other person didn't want digging in the first place, so in a way, they MUST respond to keep that from happening. To them, it's a simple option between bad or worse, and they may pick the better one, but nonetheless, it's still a bad option.

    Negative emotions don't usually come from other factors in my life, they come from simply being forced to talk. This makes most others around me perpetually think I'm in a foul mood, when really it's the refrigerator-light syndrome. You know, the light isn't always on, but people assume it is because it's always on when they look.

    The need for space -- I need space, all right. I need an incredible amount of space, an amount that I've found most people aren't willing to give. And this isn't 'sometimes' space -- this is space that when anybody is allowed through, it's the exception to the rule.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #68
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    You know, on the flip side -- and I think this is also my Fe. This is typically only at the start of relationships, when I first meet people, because once I get to know someone and trust them, I am much more voluntary in talking about myself and all of that.

    But initially, I'm not one to open up a whole lot about myself, but it's because I don't know that the other person REALLY wants to hear about it, and is really that interested. So I don't volunteer information, and I WANT them to ask me questions, and I want them to probe. So I don't mind the questions coming at me at all, and the more personal they may be, the more I feel they really want to know, and really ARE interested in getting to know me. And when they do ask questions of me, I am incredibly open and honest with my responses. [and to clarify: there's a difference between someone being nosy and someone who actually cares and wants to know - and with the former I'll answer accordingly, and won't necessarily be super open. It just depends on the context and the other persons' intentions.] So I actually like getting asked questions, and frankly it's a rare thing for people to ask me anything -- and that makes me think they really don't care about getting to know me.

    I don't want to just start spewing details of my life without getting demonstrated interest from the other person - in the form of questions. I'm just not one to start talking about myself. I'd much rather know more about the other person. So that's a problem I can have when it comes to just interacting with people, and I'm thinking maybe it's the Fe/Fi difference. When I interact with Fi's, in general they don't ask questions of me - thus I don't really open up, or it just doesn't flow, and then the relationship just kinda sits there and doesn't progress. On their end, they're possibly 'waiting' for me to just start talking of my own accord, and don't understand why I'm not.

    Just interesting. I'm not saying either method is good/bad, I'm just expressing my own tendencies and observations when it comes to how *I* interact with people.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #69
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I can see that Fes don't expect people to be cheery all the time, but think about it this way -- if somebody doesn't respond, it's immediately assumed that something's wrong. Fe gets very upset when other people are upset, and tries to help them, but by helping them, they're actually digging deeper into what the other person didn't want digging in the first place, so in a way, they MUST respond to keep that from happening. To them, it's a simple option between bad or worse, and they may pick the better one, but nonetheless, it's still a bad option...

    The need for space -- I need space, all right. I need an incredible amount of space, an amount that I've found most people aren't willing to give. And this isn't 'sometimes' space -- this is space that when anybody is allowed through, it's the exception to the rule.
    I strongly disagree with that. You sound as if FJs are mostly ignorant of any cues the other person is sending out; it's an imposition of the FJs desire to connect with a person regardless of if they want the connection or not.

    I once again ask you to look at how often this really happens to you. You've already mentioned that you have an low tolerance for "chit chatting" and "small talk." I don't find that people do that much digging into other people, most are so caught up in their own concerns and cares to be nosing around in others that much other than the superficial (when I say superficial, I mean surface NOT artificial).

    If you know you have a low tolerance for something, is it really another's fault that you find what most people are tolerant of intolerable? Have you taken stock of how accommodating people are of your needs? Are your needs reasonable? Do you have unfair expectation of people responding to your needs? How willing are you to respond to theirs?

    I think these are all questions you should be asking yourself before you make such a claim. Oftentimes when I've tried to step back from a situation I've come up lacking in what my expectations and how feasible they are. I can't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate me if I've got an unusually high need for something. It's just not fair.

  10. #70
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    Just a general observation or two on Fe, from a non-Fe type:

    To use a metaphor, an Fe-oriented conversation resembles a game of ping-pong. It has a lot of rules (Fe is a judging function), and it has clearly marked "out-of-bounds" and "in-bounds" areas. At the beginner level an Fe ping-pong game (an Fe conversation) can be slow and clumsy and silly; at the expert level it is fast as lightening, full of strategy and twists, and keeps the viewer on the edge of his seat.

    To an observer who understands the rules of Fe, it's fun to watch or participate in a game of Fe ping-pong (an Fe conversation). OTOH, to an observer who doesn't know anything about Fe, an Fe ping-pong game can be rather frightening to watch. The non-Fe observer doesn't know the rules and can't see what's in-bounds and out-of-bounds. In fact the non-Fe observer often can't even see the ball, the paddles, and the table. All he sees is two people standing a few feet apart and gesticulating wildly. They are slashing and punching at the air, looking like they are about to leap at each other and tear out each other's throats.

    Thus you have Haphazard's 16-point description (Post #57) of an Fe ping-pong game (an Fe conversation). Clearly Haphazard has no knowledge of the rules of Fe; he characterizes the Fe ping-pong game in the most violent and intrusive terms (in post #63 he even describes it as "rape"). Haphazard admits that his fears are mostly just that--his own fears--and that he can't even say that any of them are true. Still, he clearly doesn't want any of those madly-gesticulating, violent-looking Fe ping-pong types around him.

    In post #58, Proteanmix tries to explain some of the rules of Fe ping-pong to Haphazard, to show him that the game has rules and bounds and that none of his fears can possibly come true. But Haphazard relates how he has tried to join in a game by facing one of these Fe types and gesticulating wildly back, but it did no good and he just ended up making a fool of himself.

    As for me, personally I was terrible at Fe up to the age of 18 and I was very much in the same position as Haphazard. I recognize his 16-point list very well, from my own past. Nowadays, on the other hand, I'm pretty good at Fe. IOW, I can pick up a paddle and play a pretty good game of Fe ping-pong myself in a pinch.

    I would just advise Haphazard to take it slow. It really is a game of skill, and it takes practice. Start with easy repetitive conversations (the weather, current events, maybe some fluffy, jocular threads here at the message board) to work on the basics; after that, he can work on more sophisticated techniques. Working on the early basics is boring, but once you start getting some facility and sophistication at the game, the attraction grows. At the expert level, Fe ping-pong is lightening fast and utterly fascinating. It's a lot of work to get up to that advanced level for a non-Fe type, but in the end it's well worth the effort.

    And, of course, with exposure and practice one eventually learns that Fe ping-pong is not violent or intrusive or "rape." It's just a helluva fun game, when it's played well.

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