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  1. #51
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Jennifer and I used to be at (unintentional) loggerheads because of the misunderstanding (or just outright BAD experiences) with Fe. I'm so pleased we got that cleared away because now I have a great funny friend.

    Fe vs. Fi. I have to say that I might not understand Fi at all if not for being raised with an ENFP. I might not fully understand Fe either. It seemed to be nothing but a blowtorch burning under my skin that I couldn't shut off or control. My sister's reactions to things sometimes seemed puzzling to me, and my reactions seemed like "THIS!!!" to her.

    Fi's cooler nature can be enigmatic at times. Fe can be pyroclastic. Neither should be feared or avoided. My best friends are ALL Fi - INTJ, ENTJ, and ESFP. They know better than to be afraid of me, know better than to dismiss me by telling me to cork it. I know better than to demand or tax their Fi or accuse them of being heartless. Fi is very settling. Fe is tectonic. The two assist. I appreciate my INTJ best friend. Kooky guy. (Speaking of which, he just pulled up in the drive way. lol Gotta go!)

    I've only dated other Fe's for some reason. We sweat it out the same way, I guess.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING. The general contempt I have of people asking me personal questions tends to rub them the wrong way. I'm going to give them stock answers because I don't want to answer them. And when I sound upset with the delivery, they continually ask me what's wrong. I could scream "STOP FUCKING INTERROGATING ME, THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG" but dominant Ni tells me that that won't go over too well.

    It feels like I'm being pinned down in a high school science class to be dissected. They're just trying to 'care,' but they have no idea how threatening that verbal scalpel is. If somebody starts talking about their own personal life, I'll usually start asking questions because I'll get interested in the story (and that's probably what they want, anyway), but if they don't start, I'm not going to probe. In fact, when people assume that because they've spilled their guts that now I'm going to do the same, I often turn into the bad cop, taking the attitude of, "I'M the one asking the questions here!"

    I won't share a damn thing beyond the intellectual and they don't want that, they want the personal. I can't be pleasant. My discussion never turns to what I'm thinking or feeling but rather turns outwards, to things I've heard or things I've done, everything laced with humorous speculation, impressions, and lots of gesturing. I can be articulate and I can be entertaining, but I can't be personal.

    My mother is ISFJ. I can talk to her in a conversation but all the little 'considerate' questions still grind against me like a sandblaster. If I can actually get into a conversation, they can be wonderful, but all the preliminary, all the probing, is just downright painful.
    I don't really see those questions as too personal. There are questions I see as too personal, but when I encounter one of those, I just say "Oh, sorry, I'm not comfortable discussing that." I'm sure that's all you have to do. Perhaps you could even jokingly say something like "I plead the fifth."


    One thing I'd like to point out: if I don't seem very polite here, it's probably because sitting in front of a computer puts me into a frame of mind I typically use for editing configuration files, rather than talking to people. Also, perhaps because I tend to rely on inflection, hand gestures, and eye movements more than faces, and those can't be communicated quite as well. The fact that I originally came here for debate and complex discussions probably contributes as well.

    I do find it slightly irritating when some people think that they should only have to tolerate online what they would tolerate in real life, because it's a different environment where things can't be expressed in quite the same way.

  3. #53
    Member Buds of May's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    (...) if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which might entice them to prove otherwise).
    If they need to "prove otherwise," they're just proving they were insincere with the friendliness, as might have been suspected. Or no? Would you say this is a case of sincere feelings flaking out? Just kidding. Changing? Can you go into this more?

    People often seem to be trying to get back at me for who knows what. I always just figure they're using contrived grievances to justify manipulation.

  4. #54
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buds of May View Post

    People often seem to be trying to get back at me for who knows what. I always just figure they're using contrived grievances to justify manipulation.
    Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!

    What took yall so long? :rolli:

  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Jennifer and I used to be at (unintentional) loggerheads because of the misunderstanding (or just outright BAD experiences) with Fe. I'm so pleased we got that cleared away because now I have a great funny friend.
    Who are you calling funny?!

    Oh. Yeah.

    Fe vs. Fi. I have to say that I might not understand Fi at all if not for being raised with an ENFP. I might not fully understand Fe either. It seemed to be nothing but a blowtorch burning under my skin that I couldn't shut off or control. My sister's reactions to things sometimes seemed puzzling to me, and my reactions seemed like "THIS!!!" to her.

    Fi's cooler nature can be enigmatic at times. Fe can be pyroclastic. Neither should be feared or avoided.
    What is very ironic to me is that I assign the adjectives completely the opposite. I find Fi to be warm and Fe to be cool.

    Fi people, to me, express warmth and connection without having to say or give me any specific sign. There is an "aura" around them that I automatically perceive but cannot articulate, that makes me feel engaged and embraced. So they feel "warm." Put another way, it's like inner connecting to inner.

    Fe people, to me, are cordial and more explicit both in their emotions and in the signs accompanying them. The rules can be more articulated and are less amorphous, which to me makes it feel less personal and thus "cooler." To me, it is like "outer" connecting with "outer."

    Does that make sense?

    I think I am analyzing/perceiving the personal/impersonal [sorry, bad description but I'm having trouble finding the right one] aspects of the feelings, whereas you are picking up on how introverted/extroverted the feelings are. (So more extroverted feelings = hotter to you, while more personal/less "rules bound" and internalized = hotter to me.)

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!
    What took yall so long? :rolli:
    probably was trying to manipulate you into admitting it up front?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
    Member Buds of May's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!

    What took yall so long? :rolli:
    I didn't accuse you and wasn't even pinpointing Fe. I'm interested in what he said and hope he has more insights on it.

  7. #57
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wow.

    Why is the personal so threatening?

    I get turned off sometimes if I get peppered by lots of requests from FJs for the concrete minutia. ("Where did you go after work? What did you have for lunch? Who did you go with?") Those things to me quickly culminate into a pointless discussion, if that's where the conversation stays, and it bores me to tears and can even feel like an interrogation if it's someone related to me who seems to be hinting I did something wrong.

    I'd just like to understand better why the personal is to be so avoided. (which, of course, as per this conversation, you might or might not want to answer. )
    'Wow' indeed.

    I really don't know. In the time when the server of MBTIc was being finicky, I thought of a million possible answers, and I can't think of one that's true for me.

    Here are a few I came up with, though, for your entertainment:

    1)I am overly protective of myself, as in anything I say can and will be used against me in the court of law -- or, rather, as lunchroom gossip

    2)I don't normally think about the sort of thing they ask about, so these questions are actually very, very difficult

    3)When I actually start spilling 'secrets', the stuff that these Fe types want to know, I don't know if it's my inflection or my contempt that shows it, but they immediately think that I've been abused or something (this happens a lot)

    4)I really don't care about the things they're asking me about, so the questions are just a constant nuisance

    5)Every time I'm asked a question, I lose my current train of thought, which is very frustrating because I'll never find it again, and these people are unthinkingly yanking me off of them

    6)There's the underlying knowledge that if I answer one question, more are on the way, and I'll be wasting time on explaining myself completely rather than doing what I was going to do

    7)There's the unshakeable feeling that they're just questioning to be polite, and that this will again turn into a 'polite' waste of time (see 6)

    8)I'm just a vessel for my ideas and aspirations and there's really no 'me' there, so asking me about 'me' is painful and causes an immense amoutn of existentialist angst because it's asking about something I don't have but everyone apparently should

    9)They won't believe me if I tell them the truth

    10)They won't understand if I tell them the truth, and either they'll write me off as weird or continue questioning me in an attempt to understand (see 6)

    11)If I say anything bad I'll immediately get sympathy, which is something I don't want and seems insincere (see 3)

    12)It can easily be explained by 'devilish' Fe according to the Beebe model

    13)Once I give them something about me, they'll keep a tab on it, which will beget more questions, only more spread apart (see 6)

    14)I'm usually trying to figure out something about what they're talking about, and if I tell them about that thing before it's fully figured out, it'll just worry them (see 3)

    15) I know if I say anything, I'm just going to have to repeat myself, and I HATE repeating myself so much that I'd avoid it at the cost of seeming like a heartless bastard with no soul

    16)I truly am a heartless bastard with no soul and can't stand these people and would prefer to watch them rot in hell.

    I hope that's enough of an explanation for you, even though I don't even know which one is true, or which ones, even. Umm. Have fun sorting it out? Or we can just go with that it's an absolutely irrational hate and discomfort when being cornered with these types of questions. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in having 'strange' preferences...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING.
    Ahhh, so it's not that the FJs you know are immature, it's just that you're not particularly responsive to their way communicating. I was under the impression that you (and some others) were being attacked by swarms of FJs. I suppose it can feel that way sometimes. For INTJs, Fe occupies the deceitful, trickster position in their cognitive processes. A

    I think the primary thing to remember is that most of the time, FJs aren't trying to back you into a corner for you to claw your way to freedom. I have asked people those types of questions before and honestly I really don't have any intention of stopping. What I do do is see how receptive they are to those types of questions and if they're not I migrate the conversation back somewhere else. Which is why I tend to keep my conversation to general interest topics (like celebrities, TV, film, sports, etc.) because I realize that some people get antsy under that kind of relating. But it perplexes me when I read on the forum that people don't get enough "deep" conversation from people. Deep for you may be delving into impersonal intellectual topics, while deep for others may be personal and intimate topics. I admit, I'm much more interested in learning about another person than I am talking about the latest gadget or something.

    Practical advice: Tell the FJ(s) in question that while you appreciate their interest in you and your life, you'd prefer to talk about (insert whatever topic here). How this plays out in the real world is:

    FJ: So what did you do this weekend?
    You: Oh, nothing much.
    FJ: Did you go anywhere?
    You: No, I stayed at home.
    FJ: What were you doing?

    This is your opportunity to take the heat of yourself and deflect it elsewhere. You can say something like, "Oh I watched this interesting show on Discovery Health and how Gore-tex from coats was used in heart transplants" (or something, I don't know). You can either bore them with your conversation about goretex and hearts and if they can keep up, great and if they can't you'll send them flying in the opposite direction.

    The key point is that you can control the conversation too and not be left defenseless under what you feel is a barrage of questions. You can steer the conversation into more impersonal topics, while still satisfying the basic FJ need to connect without seeming rude. They got what they feel is a satisfying conversation about you (hmm, they like gore-tex coats!) and you didn't necessarily have to divulge your social security number. I do it all the time with other FJs and no harm no foul!

    If it helps you have some topics tucked away in your back pocket with a few key phrases.

    I'm just telling you this so you won't have to feel like you're being attacked by FJs. Personally, I don't think anything about answering such questions from other people FJs or any other type. I like doing that type of conversation because it leads to other types of substantial conversation. I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable jumping into heated political or scientific debate without feeling around first to see if the people would tear out my jugular because my argument was formulated in just so manner and also simply I don't know much about those kinds of things. The FJs may be putting out their antennae to you to see how you'd react to meatier subjects. I don't know, I just know that's what I do. If someone acts upset over being asked if they watched American Idol, I'd assume they'd get even more upset about other issues (which may be wrong, but hey!)

    Fe at it's core is about connecting with other people and connecting people to each other. I really don't understand how people expect others to even move past Hello without knowing basic things about the other person.

  9. #59
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Ahhh, so it's not that the FJs you know are immature, it's just that you're not particularly responsive to their way communicating. I was under the impression that you (and some others) were being attacked by swarms of FJs. I suppose it can feel that way sometimes. For INTJs, Fe occupies the deceitful, trickster position in their cognitive processes. A

    I think the primary thing to remember is that most of the time, FJs aren't trying to back you into a corner for you to claw your way to freedom. I have asked people those types of questions before and honestly I really don't have any intention of stopping. What I do do is see how receptive they are to those types of questions and if they're not I migrate the conversation back somewhere else. Which is why I tend to keep my conversation to general interest topics (like celebrities, TV, film, sports, etc.) because I realize that some people get antsy under that kind of relating. But it perplexes me when I read on the forum that people don't get enough "deep" conversation from people. Deep for you may be delving into impersonal intellectual topics, while deep for others may be personal and intimate topics. I admit, I'm much more interested in learning about another person than I am talking about the latest gadget or something.

    Practical advice: Tell the FJ(s) in question that while you appreciate their interest in you and your life, you'd prefer to talk about (insert whatever topic here). How this plays out in the real world is:

    FJ: So what did you do this weekend?
    You: Oh, nothing much.
    FJ: Did you go anywhere?
    You: No, I stayed at home.
    FJ: What were you doing?

    This is your opportunity to take the heat of yourself and deflect it elsewhere. You can say something like, "Oh I watched this interesting show on Discovery Health and how Gore-tex from coats was used in heart transplants" (or something, I don't know). You can either bore them with your conversation about goretex and hearts and if they can keep up, great and if they can't you'll send them flying in the opposite direction.

    The key point is that you can control the conversation too and not be left defenseless under what you feel is a barrage of questions. You can steer the conversation into more impersonal topics, while still satisfying the basic FJ need to connect without seeming rude. They got what they feel is a satisfying conversation about you (hmm, they like gore-tex coats!) and you didn't necessarily have to divulge your social security number. I do it all the time with other FJs and no harm no foul!

    If it helps you have some topics tucked away in your back pocket with a few key phrases.

    I'm just telling you this so you won't have to feel like you're being attacked by FJs. Personally, I don't think anything about answering such questions from other people FJs or any other type. I like doing that type of conversation because it leads to other types of substantial conversation. I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable jumping into heated political or scientific debate without feeling around first to see if the people would tear out my jugular because my argument was formulated in just so manner and also simply I don't know much about those kinds of things. The FJs may be putting out their antennae to you to see how you'd react to meatier subjects. I don't know, I just know that's what I do. If someone acts upset over being asked if they watched American Idol, I'd assume they'd get even more upset about other issues (which may be wrong, but hey!)

    Fe at it's core is about connecting with other people and connecting people to each other. I really don't understand how people expect others to even move past Hello without knowing basic things about the other person.
    Yes, it's not that these people are immature, it's that I have an unreasonable aversion to normal, healthy small talk. It's difficult going through life like that. Without even their knowledge, they're starting out with the most difficult topics for me, but they start there because that's what works with everyone else.

    I'm usually less concerned with pleasant conversation than I am with 'doing' -- which is why my most common response to this sort of thing when I honestly can't deal with it at the moment is "I'm BUSY! Stop bugging me!" because it's at least halfway true. Just being 'pleasant' is a hefty request. Usually what I did has no common interest whatsoever with anybody in the general populace (MBTI, for example) and even by that time that you've said 'start talking about the gore-tex coats', I've already completely shut down from any conversation.

    Even this conversation right now is like a wrench in my gut...

    The simple fact is, even in this model of a conversation, you're still asking me to give, give, give, which is something I'm completely not willing to do in the sort of mild conversation that FJs are likely to start.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That definition is subjective, and doesn't really tell me anything. Imperfection is relative to one's idea of perfection.

    Perhaps you need an example... suppose you see your friend tell a pregnant woman that she's thin when she asks about her weight, when in reality she isn't. Clearly his judgment is flawed, but it doesn't harm anyone. It maybe irritatingly inconsistent with reality, but it can be beared under the circumstances.

    Now, if I had a friend who were a government official, and he raised taxes on everyone claiming there were a threat that didn't exist, and pocketed all the money instead of doing what he said he would with it, and I saw all the people mistreated and poor because of his policies, I would consider it detrimental to the society in question, and have to decide whether my loyalty was to my friend, or to that society. I'd probably choose the latter.

    Does that help?
    You find the dictionary definition subjective?

    Anyway, a corrupted seed planted today, because one didn't want to create waves, will grow a corrupted tree and there is no telling what kind of fruit it will grow when mature. This is why it is dangerous to let corrupted judgement slide, it is not a loving thing to do when one looks at it long term.

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