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  1. #41
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Also, I would only defend another's flawed judgment if they were my ally. I certainly wouldn't do it for an enemy. This would be due to realizing that people's perception of them reflects on me, or seeing the value of keeping them as allies even if I disagree with them in that instance.
    This is even more frightening to me. Flawed judgement is flawed judgement. It is no good for anyone. It has to be exposed and faced. It is a poison.

  2. #42
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    This is even more frightening to me. Flawed judgement is flawed judgement. It is no good for anyone. It has to be exposed and faced. It is a poison.
    You don't even know what my definition of "flawed" is. You can't say that so blanketly. I already said that I wouldn't do anything that would hurt myself or others I'm allied with in the long run if I were aware that it would, didn't I? My definition of flawed would be something based on incorrect processing of information, pointless, or different from what I think would work well in the situation.

    What is your definition of flawed? I have a hunch that it's quite different.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You don't even know what my definition of "flawed" is. You can't say that so blanketly. I already said that I wouldn't do anything that would hurt myself or others I'm allied with in the long run if I were aware that it would, didn't I? My definition of flawed would be something based on incorrect information, pointless, or different from what I think would work well in the situation.

    What is your definition of flawed? I have a hunch that it's quite different.
    I'll be willing to support the dictionary definition of flawed.

    If you felt/thought that someone you knew was using flawed judgement to make their decisions and you supported that, yes, I stand by my answer, I would be deeply disturbed at that. That's how insanity gets going in this world and how things get so messed up and how people end up getting hurt and injured even when people had good intentions.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I'll be willing to support the dictionary definition of flawed.

    If you felt/thought that someone you knew was using flawed judgement to make their decisions and you supported that, yes, I stand by my answer, I would be deeply disturbed at that. That's how insanity gets going in this world and how things get so messed up and how people end up getting hurt and injured even when people had good intentions.
    That definition is subjective, and doesn't really tell me anything. Imperfection is relative to one's idea of perfection.

    Perhaps you need an example... suppose you see your friend tell a pregnant woman that she's thin when she asks about her weight, when in reality she isn't. Clearly his judgment is flawed, but it doesn't harm anyone. It maybe irritatingly inconsistent with reality, but it can be beared under the circumstances.

    Now, if I had a friend who were a government official, and he raised taxes on everyone claiming there were a threat that didn't exist, and pocketed all the money instead of doing what he said he would with it, and I saw all the people mistreated and poor because of his policies, I would consider it detrimental to the society in question, and have to decide whether my loyalty was to my friend, or to that society. I'd probably choose the latter.

    Does that help?

  5. #45
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Maybe I should clarify my post.

    Heart, I did not mean to assume anything about your experiences with ENFJs or ESFJs. If the people you were having these problems with were ENFJs, I was attempting to give you my reason for why I would behave in such manner a manner if it was me. I was also attempting (as LLNF and athenian have noticed) to get more detail about the situation so I could give a decent response and you did respond which clarified as far as I was concerned which is why I didn't publicly respond.

    As for if the people you dealt with were ESFJs or ENFJs, I wasn't quite sure myself if you were referring to your interactions with ESFJs or ENFJs in the ENFJ profile thread.

    Sometimes I think the distance between Fe and Fi is almost as great as Fe and Ti. I know that I have misinterpreted a few of the IFPs I know behavior as being aloof and private, just as you have interpreted EFJ behavior as intrusive and overbearing. I also know that some forum members tend to only pick up on dom Fe and think they're dealing with an ESFJ when they're not. I'm sensitive to this because I do feel like oftentimes on the forum, EFJs (particularly ESFJs) are portrayed as mother hens always telling people what's best for them regardless of what the person's desires and wishes are. I know that my experiences with ESFJs greatly differs from those of most forum members, which is why I contained my original response to what is said on the forum, not what is reflected in my real life. I know some real nasty ESFJs and I know ESFJs that are some of the sweetest human beings I've ever encountered (and I work with tons of them). I'm not taking the few handful of terrible ESFJs I work with and extrapolating that to the whole type. I'm not trying to imply that you're doing that either, which is why I sought clarification. I don't know any ENFJs for comparison.

    You said that you weren't able to discuss these things at any great length outside of the forum so maybe we can talk about them now to educate each in each other's ways.

    I find this to be a good source for basic communication when dealing with an ENFJ, especially the bolded part:

    Some things to watch for when communicating with ENFJs include being cold, impersonal, or indifferent to the people involved. ENFJs disapprove of those who are demanding, controlling, bossy, or who say things like, "I'm your supervisor so you have to do what I say." Threats will rarely work with ENFJs, and are likely to cause great anxiety and unrest. People who focus only on the numbers and not the people in an issue will not enjoy working with ENFJs. Likewise, those who focus only on the present, immediate issues, without considering the future will alienate many ENFJs. People who forget their manners or common courtesies and social norms will generally aggravate ENFJs. Finally, ENFJs want to know about the people they work with, so if you keep everything about yourself private, many ENFJs will find it difficult to relate to you. This in turn will make it harder for both of you to communicate effectively.
    If the people you've had these experiences with are in fact ENFJs, I think this is a key reason why you've had the difficulties. You said that you weren't rude or anything to them and that's fine. Just so I can understand when you say you have difficulties in communicating with ENFJs, would you say that it's most of the time or some of the time? I'd like to know if it's been a repeated pattern throughout your life or isolated incidences so I can know how to respond.

    ETA: Athenian, I thank you for your help in trying to clarify, but I think you're making this pedantic. Why don't we migrate the conversation to communication between Fe and Fi?

  6. #46
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

    Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

    Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

    Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

    Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.
    I remember feeling that way in my teens and 20's; and yes, it could be an exhausting mask, although at the time I couldn't really articulate all of that. I was really frightened of it, and I remember that the people who most bothered me were SFJ types.

    Later, as I allowed myself to feel and interact with things in a non-intellectualized way, I realized that I did have feelings and commitments about/to others. I often could not expression them spontaneously, they still had to be offered in a more routine or defined fashion, but I had them... and I enjoyed letting people I cared about know that.

    T can be cold and impersonal but doesn't necessarily have to be. And Fe can be controlling/domineering, an imposition on an individual, but doesn't have to be either. When effective, it's more simply "communication" and almost a gift that people give to others, so that they know they're accepted, and to help those unsure of how to respond a framework in which to place their affections and commitments.

    I think it's very logical, ironically, to have a culturally standardized system by which people can know they are accepted and can fit in, and both offer and accept social support. It's just part of being a human being, to desire that sort of security at some level. it is also about knowing what sort of response is appropriate when; sometimes it's necessary to be scathingly T, sometimes it's necessary to be detached T, and sometimes it's necessary to give some F-style affirmation or (paradoxically) put some F-style distance there to protect boundaries.

    I find the "smiling" conversation earlier interesting.

    I realize my bias is that I expect people to smile. (Funny for an introvert, isn't it?) Because that's what I do, even if I am not particularly happy at the moment. If I see someone in the hall, I will smile and say "Hi," with my mouth and my eyes.

    That's because the smile is not meant to reflect my internal feelings. It's instead a signal to the other person that they are accepted within my social circle and that I'm open to them as a person. I'm setting the stage for how we relate to each other.

    After they go by, if I'm sad or internally angst-ridden, the smile goes away. But it wasn't fake. It was just a tool that I used to signal very sincere commitments.

    When people interact with me without smiling to me or giving me signs like that, I get agitated and feel like they don't like me. I think I even probably categorize them as closed off, impersonal, stand-offish, perhaps even temperamental or cranky. Over time, I've learned to just not react to that. But it does throw me for a loop, if I don't get the "signals."

    So it is interesting to hear that some of you are fine with internalizing everything and not reading too much into someone who doesn't smile in the course of your communication with them.

    It also helps when I've talked to some of you and don't find Fe-style cues in your PMs that would reaffirm my relationship with you, because generally I read that as "not interested / go away" ... but then you would later insinuate that we were good friends or you enjoyed the conversation. *double take* Just is such a big eye opener.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #48
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

    Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

    Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.
    For people who feel this way, are you sure it's not some pressure you're putting on yourself because you think this is the way the FJ would want you to respond? Most FJs that I know don't force everyone to walk around like grinning idiots, pretending everything is OK when it's not. They don't even do that themselves. Have you ever tried to REALLY talk to the FJ or are you skimming by on appearances yourself?

    Example: I get on the elevator and someone says "how are you?" If I feel like being honest (honest being other than the typical "i'm fine") I'll say something like "do you really want to know?" This typically gets a laugh from the other person and they say I something similar. I've never been an advocate of fronting with people about how you really feel. I do advocate being mindful of your delivery. A few kind words turns away wrath.

    I honestly want to know how many FJs you encounter actually act like this. Is it a majority of FJs or a handful? Are you taking the few bad apples that you have to deal with and making most FJs out this way?

    And as for the rude and inconsiderate behavior, tell me what your definition of polite, rude, and inconsiderate is. I'd like us to be working from the same set of definitions before we move any further.

  9. #49
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    For people who feel this way, are you sure it's not some pressure you're putting on yourself because you think this is the way the FJ would want you to respond? Most FJs that I know don't force everyone to walk around like grinning idiots, pretending everything is OK when it's not. They don't even do that themselves. Have you ever tried to REALLY talk to the FJ or are you skimming by on appearances yourself?

    Example: I get on the elevator and someone says "how are you?" If I feel like being honest (honest being other than the typical "i'm fine") I'll say something like "do you really want to know?" This typically gets a laugh from the other person and they say I something similar. I've never been an advocate of fronting with people about how you really feel. I do advocate being mindful of your delivery. A few kind words turns away wrath.

    I honestly want to know how many FJs you encounter actually act like this. Is it a majority of FJs or a handful? Are you taking the few bad apples that you have to deal with and making most FJs out this way?

    And as for the rude and inconsiderate behavior, tell me what your definition of polite, rude, and inconsiderate is. I'd like us to be working from the same set of definitions before we move any further.
    FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING. The general contempt I have of people asking me personal questions tends to rub them the wrong way. I'm going to give them stock answers because I don't want to answer them. And when I sound upset with the delivery, they continually ask me what's wrong. I could scream "STOP FUCKING INTERROGATING ME, THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG" but dominant Ni tells me that that won't go over too well.

    It feels like I'm being pinned down in a high school science class to be dissected. They're just trying to 'care,' but they have no idea how threatening that verbal scalpel is. If somebody starts talking about their own personal life, I'll usually start asking questions because I'll get interested in the story (and that's probably what they want, anyway), but if they don't start, I'm not going to probe. In fact, when people assume that because they've spilled their guts that now I'm going to do the same, I often turn into the bad cop, taking the attitude of, "I'M the one asking the questions here!"

    I won't share a damn thing beyond the intellectual and they don't want that, they want the personal. I can't be pleasant. My discussion never turns to what I'm thinking or feeling but rather turns outwards, to things I've heard or things I've done, everything laced with humorous speculation, impressions, and lots of gesturing. I can be articulate and I can be entertaining, but I can't be personal.

    My mother is ISFJ. I can talk to her in a conversation but all the little 'considerate' questions still grind against me like a sandblaster. If I can actually get into a conversation, they can be wonderful, but all the preliminary, all the probing, is just downright painful.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #50
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    Wow.

    Why is the personal so threatening?

    I get turned off sometimes if I get peppered by lots of requests from FJs for the concrete minutia. ("Where did you go after work? What did you have for lunch? Who did you go with?") Those things to me quickly culminate into a pointless discussion, if that's where the conversation stays, and it bores me to tears and can even feel like an interrogation if it's someone related to me who seems to be hinting I did something wrong.

    I'd just like to understand better why the personal is to be so avoided. (which, of course, as per this conversation, you might or might not want to answer. )
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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