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  1. #31
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Yeah, I guess I am just a weak sister.


    I don't feel badly about it, like oh golly I made someone think I was a bad team player.... What I feel is harassed and stressed by having to deal with these certain people and will go way out of my way at times to avoid them if I can.
    Yes, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns people off. You don't care how you make them feel, you only care (and pay attention to the fact) that you feel harrassed and stressed. Why do your feelings have more value intrinsically than other peoples? I mean, do you have a higher status than they do or something to justify that kind of reaction? I don't know what that means for you, but if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which might entice them to prove otherwise).
    I do feel a bit more empathy for them realizing that they may have no choice in acting as they do because of their need for external feedback. That was my original premise. It was really illuminating to read it put down to those blunt terms. At least I can have a greater understanding for what is going on.
    Keeping that empathy in mind may just unconsciously alter your reaction enough for you to be perceived well. Try hard to think about it when you interact...

    Note that I don't have a problem with you personally, I'm just trying to describe why a person like me might have a problem with a person who feels similarly to you.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    When I sense that someone values their own reaction and isn't really as affected by mine, I feel like I'm being slapped in the face, especially if the person is of lower or equal status. I might tolerate it in medium doses from a person with higher status.
    Just because they don't automatically mirror your feeling doesn't necessarily mean they don't value your feelings. Or that they won't stand by you and be your advocate and friend.

    There have been *some* people who have easily mirrored my feelings and fed off them at times who didn't exactly value my feelings in the long run with their overall actions and deeds. That's more like being vampired or something but without any true, sincere feeling at all.

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Just because they don't automatically mirror your feeling doesn't necessarily mean they don't value your feelings. Or that they won't stand by you and be your advocate and friend.
    But how am I supposed to know if they're trying to be my friend or my enemy if they're not expressing themselves properly?
    There have been *some* people who have easily mirrored my feelings and fed off them at times who didn't exactly value my feelings in the long run with their overall actions and deeds. That's more like being vampired or something but without any true, sincere feeling at all.
    I'm sorry that happened to you, then. But what do a person's actions and deeds have to do with their feelings? Those usually reflect thoughts and perceptions. A person can express something sincerely and then act in opposition to it because their feelings changed, they had a different feeling that overrode it temporarily for some reason, they were tempted by some kind of reward, etc. It doesn't mean that what they expressed previously wasn't sincere when it was expressed.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns people off. You don't care how you make them feel, you only care (and pay attention to the fact) that you feel harrassed and stressed. Why do your feelings have more value intrinsically than other peoples?
    I care about people, but I do not think I owe them an emotional feeding when the relationship is not deep. They are the ones inserting themselves into my private sphere, trying to get me to extrovert out some emotion for them to fed off of and to feel better through. It costs me real energy to do this, I only do it for people who I sincerely feel the desire to do so for. These people are forcing the issue through their pressure, trying to invade me to gain their feeding.


    I mean, do you have a higher status than they do or something to justify that kind of reaction?
    I don't have the right to sancitity of self unless I have some higher status than someone else? I am merely an emotional source to all unless I am higher up than them?

    I don't know what that means for you, but if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which would entice them to prove otherwise).
    I don't think in terms of pecking orders. It would not mean I did not value them, it would mean they didn't have the right to expect me to feed their need at that time and they don't have the right to push for it and be invasive either. I have the right to respond with emotion in the ways I do, so long as I am polite about it. They are the ones being invasive, expecting too much


    Keeping that empathy in mind may just unconsciously alter your reaction enough for you to be perceived well.
    Try hard to think about it when you interact...
    So I am to spend all my personal energy worrying about some invisible pecking order and the filling the emotional needs of people who are not close to me? Why should I be expected to? Don't they have friends, family and lovers and pets for that?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But how am I supposed to know if they're trying to be my friend or my enemy if they're not expressing themselves properly?
    Look to their deeds, not their surface actions (including smiles and *hug* etc) and words.

    I'm sorry that happened to you, then. But what do a person's actions and deeds have to do with their feelings?

    If someone *feels* love for me, what the heck does it matter if their deeds hurt and betray me? If they smile friendly at me, but turn around and stab me in the back, what good was all the smiling?

    This is what is so confusing about Fe. If I smile at you, I was touched, deeply and with joy about something and I am sharing that sincere joy with you, because I want to. It does mean that I have special value for you in that moment, but the lack of smile doesn't mean I feel no value for you, it just means there is no overwhelming joy or humor in the moment. By speaking to you or returning your eye contact, I have given you proof of my valuing you as a fellow being. If you feel the tone was off or I was not bubbly enough, that's your extra need coming in there, not my feeling.

    By example, a thinker might really need some logic and clarity from me and I might not be able to expend the energy to give at that moment. Does that mean I don't value them and their needs?

    I might need to be left alone to think out my feelings but there's work to do and a manager comes and pulls me out of my breakroom, does that mean they don't value me as human being?

    The Fe's needs for the right kinds of feedback or social ritual are just another need that may not be able to always be accomedated or appropriate to the situation.

  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Look to their deeds, not their surface actions (including smiles and *hug* etc) and words.
    All I can interpret from a deed is a person's reasoning and perceptions, not their feelings. They could have felt many things that would cause them to act in the same way.



    If someone *feels* love for me, what the heck does it matter if their deeds hurt and betray me?
    It does matter, certainly, it's just that you have to acknowledge the feeling may have been real when it was expressed, even if another feeling overrode it or it changed later. Feelings change unpredictably all the time, and each expression is only an expression of how they felt at that moment. Does that make sense?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    All I can interpret from a deed is a person's reasoning and perceptions, not their feelings. They could have felt many things that would cause them to act in the same way.
    When you deal with a Fi dom, you are likely seeing the reactions of their Fi when they act. My perceptions are Ne and wildly fleeting from moment to moment.

    It does matter, certainly, it's just that you have to acknowledge the feeling may have been real when it was expressed, even if another feeling overrode it or it changed later. Feelings change unpredictably all the time, and each expression is only an expression of how they felt at that moment. Does that make sense?

    Feelings are not easily as changable for some. Do you not realize this? I have my gut emotions, raw and moment to moment, but I also have my feelings, my deep convictions and beliefs and commitments to others. I won't act on a raw emotion until I know how I really FEEL about it.

  8. #38
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    When you deal with a Fi dom, you are likely seeing the reactions of their Fi when they act. My perceptions are Ne and wildly fleeting from moment to moment.
    True, but in order to act, I can guess what possible possibilities and outcomes your Ne could have perceived at that moment in order to cause you to act that way. I can't, however, guess which one your Fi was coming from.



    Feelings are not easily as changable for some. Do you not realize this? I have my gut emotions, raw and moment to moment, but I also have my feelings, my deep convictions and beliefs and commitments to others.
    To me, feelings are just gut emotions from moment to moment, and are shaped by other's expectations and reactions. Anything deeper, for me, would be something like Aristotle, Hegel, Locke, Socrates, perhaps even Machiavelli, etc. Basically, everything deeper than those moment-to-moment feelings and shared values is pretty much pure perception, logic, and philosophy for me. I don't see how you can really base an action on feeling. An expression, yes... but an action? As far as I know, I can only act on perceptions, and choose from them based on feelings, which are what I express if I act. If I don't express them, they only know what I perceived or how I think, not what I felt, which can always change.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I can't, however, guess which one your Fi was coming from.
    How is this different from a Fi trying to guess if a Fe expression is fleeting and fickle or not?


    To me, feelings are just gut emotions from moment to moment, and are shaped by other's expectations. Anything deeper, for me, would be something like Aristotle, Hegel, Locke, Socrates, perhaps even Machiavelli, etc. Basically, everything deeper than those moment-to-moment feelings and shared values is pretty much pure perception, logic, and philosophy for me.
    You see, that first statement is actually frightening to me. If your logic is good, that all to the better, but what if it becomes corrupted and put in the service of Fe? What if it is put into the service of justifying other's flawed judgment since you say you are affected by their expectations?

  10. #40
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    How is this different from a Fi trying to guess if a Fe expression is fleeting and fickle or not?
    It isn't. We just don't get each other. It doesn't mean either of us are bad, it just means we can't communicate.



    You see, that first statement is actually frightening to me. If your logic is good, that all to the better, but what if it becomes corrupted and put in the service of Fe? What if it is put into the service of justifying other's flawed judgment since you say you are affected by their expectations?
    It could happen. But Ni would notice. For me, it's always about seeing the possibilities, and then trying to decide whether to do the logical/analytical thing, or express the feelings of the moment. The advantage of logic is that it's more consistent and will still make sense to me later on, and the advantage of feeling is that it will most likely make things better for me in the moment, and has a chance of being more meaningful. If I can make things better for myself and others in the moment without hurting myself or them in the long run, then I do so. But I wouldn't do something that might cause harm in the long run, if I were aware that it would.

    Also, I would only defend another's flawed judgment if they were my ally. I certainly wouldn't do it for an enemy. Does that help? This would be due to realizing that people's perception of them reflects on me, and/or seeing the value of keeping them as allies even if I disagree with them in that instance. If they were a good friend, I might discuss the disagreement privately, but I would want to seem in agreement publically so that our friendship didn't weaken or make either of us appear in a negative light. Of course, if the person is capable of seeing and valuing logic independently of their feelings, I might simply express the logic that lead me to the disagreement, expecting them to change their mind or justify themselves such that I accept their decision

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