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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Okay, I will try again, they both described situations where they said "hello" to someone and that someone gave them no response, looked right at them and gave them no response.

    That's a totally cut and dried situation. It is actually called a "cut direct."

    I replied that I DO say "hello" when someone says it to me. ( and yes this includes all the various forms of that hi, howdy, Yo, hey, good morning, whatzup, how's it hanging...whatever. )

    In fact, I will say "hi" to everyone who makes eye contact with me some place like work, even though I often really would rather not. But this is not enough for some people!

    I will tend to stick to "hi" and then say "fine, how are you" when people follow up with the how are you. What more should be expected? How much further should I be expected to go into this before you will "accept" my word that I am not talking about completely ignoring people, cutting them direct?

    So if there is another version of not ingoring someone who says hello, that does not include me saying a greeting back, share this with me because I don't understand it.
    You're oversimplifying it. No, you're not literally ignoring them, but if you don't use the right inflection, it will come across as forced, and if it comes across as forced, the person will think that either you're unhappy, or they've offended you. You could well be saying it in a tone that's somewhat distant or tired, which implies that you're frustrated or irritated to see them, rather than happy to see them. If you say it too neutrally, it could come across as sarcastic or cold. In fact, if you say it too nicely, you could seem sort of guilty or as if you're "trying too hard." You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much. I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it. There's even a different way you're supposed to react to someone depending on whether they're higher than you, lower than you, or equal to you in status. You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.

  2. #22
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're oversimplifying it.
    No, you are over complicating it, trying to place as many nit picky little social rules on it as possible.


    No, you're not literally ignoring them, but if you don't use the right inflection, it will come across as forced, and if it comes across as forced, the person will think that either you're unhappy, or they've offended you.
    Often social interactions in our world are forced, forced by those who put all these rules and rituals on them.


    You could well be saying it in a tone that's somewhat distant or tired, which implies that you're frustrated or irritated to see them, rather than happy to see them.
    Gee, could just mean I was tired or frustrated or distracted, couldn't it?


    If you say it too neutrally, it could come across as sarcastic or cold. In fact, if you say it too nicely, you could seem sort of guilty or as if you're "trying too hard."
    So no matter what, its going to be taken the wrong way?


    You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much.
    Not always possible. I am not some actress. Social interacts already take a great deal of energy, some days it is just not there.

    I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it.
    It is if a person wants to put so many stipulations on it!

    You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.
    It sounds like its a completely hopeless situation from the way you've described it above.

    But all of this aside, are you saying that I AM ignoring people if I don't adhere to some magic tone and delievery of the hello, that it doesn't even count?

    Good grief... I give up.

  3. #23
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I have had meaningful friendships with people who don't smile in response to me. My mentor of over a dozen years never even acknowledged passers-by in the hall, even when greeted. I eventually received a slight nod, which meant more than most smiles I've received. I have received some beautiful smiles filled with deceit. A smile is a symbol of goodwill and kindness, but just like words, it can be used to concoct a lie.
    I like this description of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I have horrible, horrible control over my facial expression. I'd prefer not to be judged by it but unfortunately if people are paying any attention to you at all, that's what they're doing.
    Ugh, yep, me too. If I concentrate, I can make myself have appropriate facial expressions and body language because I know others think those things are important. Kind of like some people have a very fixed idea of how to interpret facial expressions and body language so I just put that on as a mask to humour them.

    But if I'm thinking hard about something, I forget to do that and then people make the weirdest assumptions about me. Very annoying. On more than one occasion after team meetings, colleagues have said 'you must have been so bored in that meeting, you didn't say a word' or 'you looked annoyed/defensive because you had your arms crossed' - but the reality was I was fascinated with what was being discussed and I was thinking hard about all the implications and fitting it into the big picture of all our projects. *sigh* And they don't believe me if I say that because there's this belief that body language is infallible. Bleah.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    No, you are over complicating it, trying to place as many nit picky little social rules on it as possible.
    So will others. I personally would never have made this so complex on purpose, I just follow the system as I perceive it exists. It's not that think it's the best, it's just that I want to use it to control how I'm perceived.



    Often social interactions in our world are forced, forced by those who put all these rules and rituals on them.
    Yes, but you don't want them to feel like you're only interacting with them because it was forced... do you?



    Gee, could just mean I was tired or frustrated or distracted, couldn't it?
    It could, but you should probably say that to them immediately after saying hello. Something like, "Sorry if I came off oddly, I'm feeling a bit off today. It's... really not something I feel comfortable talking about." People usually understand if you say something like that.





    Not always possible. I am not some actress. Social interacts already take a great deal of energy, some days it is just not there.
    Well... then you have to accept that many people will always be annoyed by you.

    But all of this aside, are you saying that I AM ignoring people if I don't adhere to some magic tone and delievery of the hello, that it doesn't even count?
    Well... people will feel slighted or ignored, but that doesn't mean you meant to do it. So don't feel too badly about it. There are a lot of xxTJ's who go through life encountering the same things, only they just shrug it off (because they're not as sensitive), or force themselves into training if they must deal with people. Unfortunately, you might not be strong enough for either.

    Strangely, I don't have the same reaction to T's who seem insensitive. I think it's because I can sense that that they devalue their own feelings as well as mine, so it seems "balanced." It's also balanced when someone values their own feelings and mine. When I sense that someone values their own reaction and isn't really as affected by mine, I feel like I'm being slapped in the face, especially if the person is of lower or equal status. I might tolerate it in medium doses from a person with higher status.

    If someone were to value my reactions and not their own, I would likely feel pity, and either try to enhance their self-esteem, or point out that I'm not as great as they think by mentioning a few of my flaws.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I have horrible, horrible control over my facial expression. I'd prefer not to be judged by it but unfortunately if people are paying any attention to you at all, that's what they're doing.
    Yes! Me too! I'm not sure if I can correct it, but the only solutions I've found have been to a. embrace yourself as you are, b. explain to them that you have a difficult time doing that e.g. my neutral face looks as if I'm upset.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I can handle a unhealthy, cold, A-hole T somewhat better than a unhealthy Fe.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much. I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it. You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.
    I agreed with you Athenian. But I think the point heart has been trying to convey is that this is the very thing she can not stand. Being forced into expressing herself as cheerful even if she is in a poor mood. e.g. If you saw someone hung-over from last night, I can guarantee you that they want to be left alone.
    I may be bested in battle, but I shall never be defeated.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    So will others. I personally would never have made this so complex on purpose, I just follow the system as I perceive it exists. It's not that think it's the best, it's just that I want to use it to control how I'm perceived.
    Yes, but you don't want them to feel like you're only interacting with them because it was forced... do you?


    It could, but you should probably say that to them immediately after saying hello. Something like, "Sorry if I came off oddly, I'm feeling a bit off today. It's... really not something I feel comfortable talking about." People usually understand if you say something like that.





    Well... then you have to accept that many people will always be annoyed by you.

    Well... people will feel slighted or ignored, but that doesn't mean you meant to do it. So don't feel too badly about it. There are a lot of xxTJ's who go through life encountering the same things, only they just shrug it off (because they're not as sensitive), or force themselves into training if they must deal with people. Unfortunately, you might not be strong enough for either.
    Yeah, I guess I am just a weak sister.


    I don't feel badly about it, like oh golly I made someone think I was a bad team player.... What I feel is harassed and stressed by having to deal with these certain people and will go way out of my way at times to avoid them if I can.

    I do feel a bit more empathy for them realizing that they may have no choice in acting as they do because of their need for external feedback. That was my original premise. It was really illuminating to read it put down to those blunt terms. At least I can have a greater understanding for what is going on.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    Tangent: When an animal shows its teeth, you know it means business.
    I may be bested in battle, but I shall never be defeated.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    Tangent: When an animal shows its teeth, you know it means business.
    I don't know, when my cat does it, she usually wants to play.

  9. #29
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    I agreed with you Athenian. But I think the point heart has been trying to convey is that this is the very thing she can not stand. Being forced into expressing herself as cheerful even if she is in a poor mood.
    Or being forced to do when or is natural.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't know, when my cat does it, she wants to play.
    Hmm. I was originally thinking of larger specimens like a tiger or hippo than a kitty. As much as I love cats, I know my mother's cat would eat me if I was hungry - before it would torture me as an act of amusement.
    I may be bested in battle, but I shall never be defeated.

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