• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NF] Communicating between Fe and Fi

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Okay, I will try again, they both described situations where they said "hello" to someone and that someone gave them no response, looked right at them and gave them no response.

That's a totally cut and dried situation. It is actually called a "cut direct."

I replied that I DO say "hello" when someone says it to me. ( and yes this includes all the various forms of that hi, howdy, Yo, hey, good morning, whatzup, how's it hanging...whatever. )

In fact, I will say "hi" to everyone who makes eye contact with me some place like work, even though I often really would rather not. But this is not enough for some people!

I will tend to stick to "hi" and then say "fine, how are you" when people follow up with the how are you. What more should be expected? How much further should I be expected to go into this before you will "accept" my word that I am not talking about completely ignoring people, cutting them direct?

So if there is another version of not ingoring someone who says hello, that does not include me saying a greeting back, share this with me because I don't understand it.

You're oversimplifying it. No, you're not literally ignoring them, but if you don't use the right inflection, it will come across as forced, and if it comes across as forced, the person will think that either you're unhappy, or they've offended you. You could well be saying it in a tone that's somewhat distant or tired, which implies that you're frustrated or irritated to see them, rather than happy to see them. If you say it too neutrally, it could come across as sarcastic or cold. In fact, if you say it too nicely, you could seem sort of guilty or as if you're "trying too hard." You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much. I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it. There's even a different way you're supposed to react to someone depending on whether they're higher than you, lower than you, or equal to you in status. You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
You're oversimplifying it.

No, you are over complicating it, trying to place as many nit picky little social rules on it as possible.


No, you're not literally ignoring them, but if you don't use the right inflection, it will come across as forced, and if it comes across as forced, the person will think that either you're unhappy, or they've offended you.

Often social interactions in our world are forced, forced by those who put all these rules and rituals on them.


You could well be saying it in a tone that's somewhat distant or tired, which implies that you're frustrated or irritated to see them, rather than happy to see them.

Gee, could just mean I was tired or frustrated or distracted, couldn't it?


If you say it too neutrally, it could come across as sarcastic or cold. In fact, if you say it too nicely, you could seem sort of guilty or as if you're "trying too hard."

So no matter what, its going to be taken the wrong way? :huh:


You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much.

Not always possible. I am not some actress. Social interacts already take a great deal of energy, some days it is just not there.

I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it.

It is if a person wants to put so many stipulations on it! ;)

You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.

It sounds like its a completely hopeless situation from the way you've described it above. :shock:

But all of this aside, are you saying that I AM ignoring people if I don't adhere to some magic tone and delievery of the hello, that it doesn't even count?

Good grief... I give up.
 

bluebell

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
1,485
MBTI Type
INTP
I have had meaningful friendships with people who don't smile in response to me. My mentor of over a dozen years never even acknowledged passers-by in the hall, even when greeted. I eventually received a slight nod, which meant more than most smiles I've received. I have received some beautiful smiles filled with deceit. A smile is a symbol of goodwill and kindness, but just like words, it can be used to concoct a lie.

I like this description of it.

I have horrible, horrible control over my facial expression. I'd prefer not to be judged by it but unfortunately if people are paying any attention to you at all, that's what they're doing.

Ugh, yep, me too. If I concentrate, I can make myself have appropriate facial expressions and body language because I know others think those things are important. Kind of like some people have a very fixed idea of how to interpret facial expressions and body language so I just put that on as a mask to humour them.

But if I'm thinking hard about something, I forget to do that and then people make the weirdest assumptions about me. Very annoying. On more than one occasion after team meetings, colleagues have said 'you must have been so bored in that meeting, you didn't say a word' or 'you looked annoyed/defensive because you had your arms crossed' - but the reality was I was fascinated with what was being discussed and I was thinking hard about all the implications and fitting it into the big picture of all our projects. *sigh* And they don't believe me if I say that because there's this belief that body language is infallible. Bleah.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
No, you are over complicating it, trying to place as many nit picky little social rules on it as possible.

So will others. I personally would never have made this so complex on purpose, I just follow the system as I perceive it exists. It's not that think it's the best, it's just that I want to use it to control how I'm perceived.



Often social interactions in our world are forced, forced by those who put all these rules and rituals on them.

Yes, but you don't want them to feel like you're only interacting with them because it was forced... do you?


Gee, could just mean I was tired or frustrated or distracted, couldn't it?

:hug: It could, but you should probably say that to them immediately after saying hello. Something like, "Sorry if I came off oddly, I'm feeling a bit off today. It's... really not something I feel comfortable talking about." People usually understand if you say something like that.



Not always possible. I am not some actress. Social interacts already take a great deal of energy, some days it is just not there.

Well... then you have to accept that many people will always be annoyed by you.

But all of this aside, are you saying that I AM ignoring people if I don't adhere to some magic tone and delievery of the hello, that it doesn't even count?

Well... people will feel slighted or ignored, but that doesn't mean you meant to do it. So don't feel too badly about it. There are a lot of xxTJ's who go through life encountering the same things, only they just shrug it off (because they're not as sensitive), or force themselves into training if they must deal with people. Unfortunately, you might not be strong enough for either. :(

Strangely, I don't have the same reaction to T's who seem insensitive. I think it's because I can sense that that they devalue their own feelings as well as mine, so it seems "balanced." It's also balanced when someone values their own feelings and mine. When I sense that someone values their own reaction and isn't really as affected by mine, I feel like I'm being slapped in the face, especially if the person is of lower or equal status. I might tolerate it in medium doses from a person with higher status.

If someone were to value my reactions and not their own, I would likely feel pity, and either try to enhance their self-esteem, or point out that I'm not as great as they think by mentioning a few of my flaws.
 

Noel

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
613
MBTI Type
INFP
I have horrible, horrible control over my facial expression. I'd prefer not to be judged by it but unfortunately if people are paying any attention to you at all, that's what they're doing.
Yes! Me too! I'm not sure if I can correct it, but the only solutions I've found have been to a. embrace yourself as you are, b. explain to them that you have a difficult time doing that e.g. my neutral face looks as if I'm upset.

I can handle a unhealthy, cold, A-hole T somewhat better than a unhealthy Fe.
Agreed.

You have to say it with a bit of cheer, but not too much. I don't know what scenario was put forth, but saying hello is more complex than just saying it. You have to say it the right way in order for them to know you don't dislike them.

I agreed with you Athenian. But I think the point heart has been trying to convey is that this is the very thing she can not stand. Being forced into expressing herself as cheerful even if she is in a poor mood. e.g. If you saw someone hung-over from last night, I can guarantee you that they want to be left alone.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
So will others. I personally would never have made this so complex on purpose, I just follow the system as I perceive it exists. It's not that think it's the best, it's just that I want to use it to control how I'm perceived.
Yes, but you don't want them to feel like you're only interacting with them because it was forced... do you?


:hug: It could, but you should probably say that to them immediately after saying hello. Something like, "Sorry if I came off oddly, I'm feeling a bit off today. It's... really not something I feel comfortable talking about." People usually understand if you say something like that.





Well... then you have to accept that many people will always be annoyed by you.

Well... people will feel slighted or ignored, but that doesn't mean you meant to do it. So don't feel too badly about it. There are a lot of xxTJ's who go through life encountering the same things, only they just shrug it off (because they're not as sensitive), or force themselves into training if they must deal with people. Unfortunately, you might not be strong enough for either. :(

Yeah, I guess I am just a weak sister. :rolleyes:


I don't feel badly about it, like oh golly I made someone think I was a bad team player.... What I feel is harassed and stressed by having to deal with these certain people and will go way out of my way at times to avoid them if I can.

I do feel a bit more empathy for them realizing that they may have no choice in acting as they do because of their need for external feedback. That was my original premise. It was really illuminating to read it put down to those blunt terms. At least I can have a greater understanding for what is going on.
 

Noel

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
613
MBTI Type
INFP
Tangent: When an animal shows its teeth, you know it means business.
 

bluebell

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
1,485
MBTI Type
INTP
I agreed with you Athenian. But I think the point heart has been trying to convey is that this is the very thing she can not stand. Being forced into expressing herself as cheerful even if she is in a poor mood.

Or being forced to do :D when :) or :mellow: is natural.
 

Noel

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
613
MBTI Type
INFP
I don't know, when my cat does it, she wants to play.

Hmm. I was originally thinking of larger specimens like a tiger or hippo than a kitty. As much as I love cats, I know my mother's cat would eat me if I was hungry - before it would torture me as an act of amusement.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Yeah, I guess I am just a weak sister. :rolleyes:


I don't feel badly about it, like oh golly I made someone think I was a bad team player.... What I feel is harassed and stressed by having to deal with these certain people and will go way out of my way at times to avoid them if I can.

Yes, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns people off. You don't care how you make them feel, you only care (and pay attention to the fact) that you feel harrassed and stressed. Why do your feelings have more value intrinsically than other peoples? I mean, do you have a higher status than they do or something to justify that kind of reaction? I don't know what that means for you, but if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which might entice them to prove otherwise).
I do feel a bit more empathy for them realizing that they may have no choice in acting as they do because of their need for external feedback. That was my original premise. It was really illuminating to read it put down to those blunt terms. At least I can have a greater understanding for what is going on.

Keeping that empathy in mind may just unconsciously alter your reaction enough for you to be perceived well. Try hard to think about it when you interact...

Note that I don't have a problem with you personally, I'm just trying to describe why a person like me might have a problem with a person who feels similarly to you.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
When I sense that someone values their own reaction and isn't really as affected by mine, I feel like I'm being slapped in the face, especially if the person is of lower or equal status. I might tolerate it in medium doses from a person with higher status.

Just because they don't automatically mirror your feeling doesn't necessarily mean they don't value your feelings. Or that they won't stand by you and be your advocate and friend.

There have been *some* people who have easily mirrored my feelings and fed off them at times who didn't exactly value my feelings in the long run with their overall actions and deeds. That's more like being vampired or something but without any true, sincere feeling at all.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Just because they don't automatically mirror your feeling doesn't necessarily mean they don't value your feelings. Or that they won't stand by you and be your advocate and friend.

But how am I supposed to know if they're trying to be my friend or my enemy if they're not expressing themselves properly?
There have been *some* people who have easily mirrored my feelings and fed off them at times who didn't exactly value my feelings in the long run with their overall actions and deeds. That's more like being vampired or something but without any true, sincere feeling at all.

I'm sorry that happened to you, then. But what do a person's actions and deeds have to do with their feelings? Those usually reflect thoughts and perceptions. A person can express something sincerely and then act in opposition to it because their feelings changed, they had a different feeling that overrode it temporarily for some reason, they were tempted by some kind of reward, etc. It doesn't mean that what they expressed previously wasn't sincere when it was expressed.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
Yeah, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns people off. You don't care how you make them feel, you only care (and pay attention to the fact) that you feel harrassed and stressed. Why do your feelings have more value intrinsically than other peoples?

I care about people, but I do not think I owe them an emotional feeding when the relationship is not deep. They are the ones inserting themselves into my private sphere, trying to get me to extrovert out some emotion for them to fed off of and to feel better through. It costs me real energy to do this, I only do it for people who I sincerely feel the desire to do so for. These people are forcing the issue through their pressure, trying to invade me to gain their feeding.


I mean, do you have a higher status than they do or something to justify that kind of reaction?

I don't have the right to sancitity of self unless I have some higher status than someone else? I am merely an emotional source to all unless I am higher up than them?

I don't know what that means for you, but if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which would entice them to prove otherwise).

I don't think in terms of pecking orders. It would not mean I did not value them, it would mean they didn't have the right to expect me to feed their need at that time and they don't have the right to push for it and be invasive either. I have the right to respond with emotion in the ways I do, so long as I am polite about it. They are the ones being invasive, expecting too much


Keeping that empathy in mind may just unconsciously alter your reaction enough for you to be perceived well.
Try hard to think about it when you interact...

So I am to spend all my personal energy worrying about some invisible pecking order and the filling the emotional needs of people who are not close to me? Why should I be expected to? Don't they have friends, family and lovers and pets for that?
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
But how am I supposed to know if they're trying to be my friend or my enemy if they're not expressing themselves properly?

Look to their deeds, not their surface actions (including smiles and *hug* etc) and words.

I'm sorry that happened to you, then. But what do a person's actions and deeds have to do with their feelings?


If someone *feels* love for me, what the heck does it matter if their deeds hurt and betray me? If they smile friendly at me, but turn around and stab me in the back, what good was all the smiling?

This is what is so confusing about Fe. If I smile at you, I was touched, deeply and with joy about something and I am sharing that sincere joy with you, because I want to. It does mean that I have special value for you in that moment, but the lack of smile doesn't mean I feel no value for you, it just means there is no overwhelming joy or humor in the moment. By speaking to you or returning your eye contact, I have given you proof of my valuing you as a fellow being. If you feel the tone was off or I was not bubbly enough, that's your extra need coming in there, not my feeling.

By example, a thinker might really need some logic and clarity from me and I might not be able to expend the energy to give at that moment. Does that mean I don't value them and their needs?

I might need to be left alone to think out my feelings but there's work to do and a manager comes and pulls me out of my breakroom, does that mean they don't value me as human being?

The Fe's needs for the right kinds of feedback or social ritual are just another need that may not be able to always be accomedated or appropriate to the situation.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Look to their deeds, not their surface actions (including smiles and *hug* etc) and words.

:huh: All I can interpret from a deed is a person's reasoning and perceptions, not their feelings. They could have felt many things that would cause them to act in the same way.



If someone *feels* love for me, what the heck does it matter if their deeds hurt and betray me?

It does matter, certainly, it's just that you have to acknowledge the feeling may have been real when it was expressed, even if another feeling overrode it or it changed later. Feelings change unpredictably all the time, and each expression is only an expression of how they felt at that moment. Does that make sense?
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
:huh: All I can interpret from a deed is a person's reasoning and perceptions, not their feelings. They could have felt many things that would cause them to act in the same way.

When you deal with a Fi dom, you are likely seeing the reactions of their Fi when they act. My perceptions are Ne and wildly fleeting from moment to moment.

It does matter, certainly, it's just that you have to acknowledge the feeling may have been real when it was expressed, even if another feeling overrode it or it changed later. Feelings change unpredictably all the time, and each expression is only an expression of how they felt at that moment. Does that make sense?


Feelings are not easily as changable for some. Do you not realize this? I have my gut emotions, raw and moment to moment, but I also have my feelings, my deep convictions and beliefs and commitments to others. I won't act on a raw emotion until I know how I really FEEL about it.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
When you deal with a Fi dom, you are likely seeing the reactions of their Fi when they act. My perceptions are Ne and wildly fleeting from moment to moment.

True, but in order to act, I can guess what possible possibilities and outcomes your Ne could have perceived at that moment in order to cause you to act that way. I can't, however, guess which one your Fi was coming from.



Feelings are not easily as changable for some. Do you not realize this? I have my gut emotions, raw and moment to moment, but I also have my feelings, my deep convictions and beliefs and commitments to others.

To me, feelings are just gut emotions from moment to moment, and are shaped by other's expectations and reactions. Anything deeper, for me, would be something like Aristotle, Hegel, Locke, Socrates, perhaps even Machiavelli, etc. Basically, everything deeper than those moment-to-moment feelings and shared values is pretty much pure perception, logic, and philosophy for me. I don't see how you can really base an action on feeling. An expression, yes... but an action? As far as I know, I can only act on perceptions, and choose from them based on feelings, which are what I express if I act. If I don't express them, they only know what I perceived or how I think, not what I felt, which can always change.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
I can't, however, guess which one your Fi was coming from.

How is this different from a Fi trying to guess if a Fe expression is fleeting and fickle or not?


To me, feelings are just gut emotions from moment to moment, and are shaped by other's expectations. Anything deeper, for me, would be something like Aristotle, Hegel, Locke, Socrates, perhaps even Machiavelli, etc. Basically, everything deeper than those moment-to-moment feelings and shared values is pretty much pure perception, logic, and philosophy for me.

You see, that first statement is actually frightening to me. :shock: If your logic is good, that all to the better, but what if it becomes corrupted and put in the service of Fe? What if it is put into the service of justifying other's flawed judgment since you say you are affected by their expectations?
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
How is this different from a Fi trying to guess if a Fe expression is fleeting and fickle or not?

It isn't. We just don't get each other. It doesn't mean either of us are bad, it just means we can't communicate.



You see, that first statement is actually frightening to me. :shock: If your logic is good, that all to the better, but what if it becomes corrupted and put in the service of Fe? What if it is put into the service of justifying other's flawed judgment since you say you are affected by their expectations?

It could happen. But Ni would notice. For me, it's always about seeing the possibilities, and then trying to decide whether to do the logical/analytical thing, or express the feelings of the moment. The advantage of logic is that it's more consistent and will still make sense to me later on, and the advantage of feeling is that it will most likely make things better for me in the moment, and has a chance of being more meaningful. If I can make things better for myself and others in the moment without hurting myself or them in the long run, then I do so. But I wouldn't do something that might cause harm in the long run, if I were aware that it would.

Also, I would only defend another's flawed judgment if they were my ally. I certainly wouldn't do it for an enemy. Does that help? This would be due to realizing that people's perception of them reflects on me, and/or seeing the value of keeping them as allies even if I disagree with them in that instance. If they were a good friend, I might discuss the disagreement privately, but I would want to seem in agreement publically so that our friendship didn't weaken or make either of us appear in a negative light. Of course, if the person is capable of seeing and valuing logic independently of their feelings, I might simply express the logic that lead me to the disagreement, expecting them to change their mind or justify themselves such that I accept their decision
 
Top