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  1. #101
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think the thread has become a bitch-fest. Fe thinks Fi is too greedy, Fi thinks Fe is too nosy. The end.
    Maybe Te and Ti should join. Then it will be a superbitch-fest!
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  2. #102
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sriv View Post
    Maybe Te and Ti should join. Then it will be a superbitch-fest!
    I believe they already did. If you look closely, you can see subtle Te elements appearing in the Fi posts, and subtle Ti elements in the Fe posts. It's weird how having one seems to guarantee that the other will work in the opposite direction.

    To some extent, I realized that every conflict I have with Fi-people is generally based on their idea that something is either done or not, while I was focused on how they did it, and the qualities of the action itself. To them, it's been covered and the same question is being asked again, while to me it's a different nuance of the same idea that may not have been addressed. I was able to understand them a bit better when I realized that, but it's still difficult and I have to fight my instincts in order to communicate with FP's. But it is possible.

  3. #103
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    To some extent, I realized that every conflict I have with Fi-people is generally based on their idea that something is either done or not, while I was focused on how they did it, and the qualities of the action itself. To them, it's been covered and the same question is being asked again, while to me it's a different nuance of the same idea that may not have been addressed. I was able to understand them a bit better when I realized that, but it's still difficult and I have to fight my instincts in order to communicate with FP's. But it is possible.
    I never made this connection, but I work with many Fi's and this definitely a problem that I experience with them (and even my best friend! ENFP).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  4. #104
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Fe+Ti -- is that why FJs are hairsplitters when it comes to conduct?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Hmm. Interesting. So Fi maybe spends time on should/should not? In this context, I agree that people should mind their own business and leave people that don't want to be bothered alone. That, to me, is a given.

    But realistically, I know there's about a snowball's chance of that ever happening, so should/should not has about zero relevance to a discussion on intrusive people. Yeah, they're intrusive. Yeah, it sucks. That's the end of that conversation and nothing is accomplished unless we're just venting.

    Nothing wrong with venting, but I hate for things to end there. I dislike inertia in the face of vexation and if things are screwed up, I want to know why, how, etc and what are some things that can be done to improve the situation. I can't begin to fathom being unhappy with a situation and not working towards improving it.

    Society's not going to change for our comfort and convenience. We have no ability to control the actions of anyone but ourselves, so that is why I bring up strategies for dealing with intrusive people. We've already established that they are intrusive. What would be the point of belaboring it?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Society's not going to change for our comfort and convenience. We have no ability to control the actions of anyone but ourselves, so that is why I bring up strategies for dealing with intrusive people. We've already established that they are intrusive. What would be the point of belaboring it?
    Exactly. That's why I'm about finding practical solutions for how to deal with the intrusive people (FJ or no) rather than just complaining about them. I'd rather tell people how to navigate around them.

    FineLine, could you explain more what this Fe ping pong looks like (beyond the basic generic questions) from an observer's perspective? I know what it's like when I get into a really good groove with another EFJ (or any ExFx) and it can be exhilarating. Maybe other's do just see it as wild gesturing and squealing, idk, but I think it's fun.

  7. #107
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    What do I see in this pingpong game?

    Facts are adjustable. I guess that makes sense considering these confrontations aren’t really important, but I’ve even doubted the soundness of my memory while listening to people engage in ‘small talk.’ When listening to my mother talk about things that have happened to the family, I wonder if I’m not going mad because of how much things are adjusted to fit whatever ‘small talk’ is happening.’

    Now, I’m no goody-two-shoes. I lie, too. I’d even say that I lie on a regular basis. I won’t even say that it’s wrong to lie. In many cases, lying is very, very good. I lie for a purpose, though; these have none except to impress the other player. The force at which these lies happen, the frequency and consistency never ceases to astound me. I don’t know where they get the energy.

    Every phrase is a challenge, meaning everything is fair game – even things that should be private, because the challenge must be met. The truth may be stretched to its breaking point, but things about me and things about them that I’d be mortified if anybody knew are revealed and I don’t know why they have to do this. Nobody is forcing them to, but they do anyway, just out of sheer momentum of competition. The ‘pingpong’ players aren’t thinking. They just DO. Maybe I’m just a simple NT, stuck in ‘analysis is paralysis,’ but if you don’t look where you’re going, you’re going to hurt someone. The stakes may be momentously low but they play like there’s nothing more important, without a care to the consequences of what they reveal.

    Fine. It’s in ‘good fun.’ Whatever. It may just be pingpong to you, but I see a vicious blood sport, with no enjoyment to be taken from it. On top of that, there’s too much effort for absolutely zero gain. Why would I put up with play?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #108
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    When listening to my mother talk about things that have happened to the family, I wonder if I’m not going mad because of how much things are adjusted to fit whatever ‘small talk’ is happening.’
    The problem is, if you really start to use your emotion in analysis, you enter into a dark and lonely corridor, where you, when you do have the strength by any chance to walk it through, will come to an end that does not much differ from the start. Because in the beginning you saw imperfection in you and in others and in the end you will see it, too.

    If you can't separate vulcan logic from "severe felt irrational behaviour of others" traumata, you are free to join my club .

    I think when you have already grown fond to a lying thing, you must switch it, to an ignoring thing. To listen to small talk is no big challenge for anyone and if you have, in any part of your soul, the feeling of wanting to be strong, you listen to others small talk and make them happy just by doing so. Even if you are feeling guilty, because of you not sharing your point of view of things with someone you like at the moment. Some people are just not intrested in that kind of deep feelings or thoughts in small talk situations.

    When then comes the minute, when you have that different feeling that you can not bear the shit of the others anymore and all your good will in staying strong vanishes, bear two things in mind: a) most of the people can't bear your shit either. And: b) some people are in most ways completly different from youm but they are feeling just as lone as you.

    Just from another PoV
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #109
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It can turn into a bloodsport, most definitely. If there is a way to opt out of it without being a hermit, I don't know what that way is.

    How do you keep peace with your neighbors without being friendly, showing them you are not some scary freak they should try to force out of the neighborhood? How do you get through a job interview? How do you make the social connections to maintain and/or advance your career? How do you find and court a romantic partner? How do you establish open lines of communication with your children's teachers?

    The only effective way I've found to do this is through Fe ping pong. I've tried opting out with disastrous effects and have come to the conclusion that it's just the way our species works. You really don't get to opt out of your species, if you try, you only end up a pariah. Most of the time, bad things happen to pariahs.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #110
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The problem is, if you really start to use your emotion in analysis, you enter into a dark and lonely corridor, where you, when you do have the strength by any chance to walk it through, will come to an end that does not much differ from the start. Because in the beginning you saw imperfection in you and in others and in the end you will see it, too.

    If you can't separate vulcan logic from severe felt irrational behaviour of others traumata, you are free to join my club
    I'm just listening and I can't make sense of it. I continuously have to question my memory because I have no idea what's going on. I hear people reminiscing and I can never relate, even if I was there, so I've stopped trying. I've been so sure that there's something wrong with me because I can't reminisce and remember like other people do. There was stuff that happened before, but I pillage the past for all the information it's worth and leave it, to never return.

    Not imperfection in others, just crippling imperfection in myself.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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