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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I agree. Crusading at work would mostly be really bad manners, much like talking religion or politics or making passes.
    Well, the worry in this instance is more that I'll get defensive, let myself get painted into a corner, and then get all rigid and rabid about my cause so that I can fight my way free again. Better to stay calm and flexible, maneuver and counterpunch as we go, and keep from getting backed into any corners.

    But I agree that awareness of the work environment alone causes both of us to keep things civil and within courteous bounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It seems to be a woman to woman thing in my experience. And the choice for some of them is not the choice to give a little, they push and push for more.

    I have never had a problem like this with men. Some Te men will accuse me of not paying attention at times, but usually they can be put at ease by repeating back what they have said to me and showing them that yes, I have been paying attention.
    Fair enough. There are definitely some gender differences in how men and women work out their differences. Men and women play the F card differently.

    Though I'm a little surprised at how my ENFJ boss argues. I may go into a confrontation feeling that there's only one issue in play and expecting to have to defend myself only at the one main point of contention. But after testing me at the main point, my boss will shift about quickly and come at me from six other different angles looking for even very small points of access or leverage. So I have to stay on my toes, watch for subtle shifts in approach, figure out where he's headed, and try to deny or snatch away his objective before he gets there. It's exhilarating; but I can understand your feeling that they just keep coming after you and pushing for more. By way of contrast, Te is much more direct and blunt as you indicated.

    Again, I think that demonstrates an ENFJ's tenacity and determination to achieve their own "social imperative" in a conflict situation. They aren't pushovers. There's a lot of testing and maneuvering that gets done before we can get down to the horse-trading and work out the final compromise.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Well, the worry in this instance is more that I'll get defensive, let myself get painted into a corner, and then get all rigid and rabid about my cause so that I can fight my way free again. Better to stay calm and flexible, maneuver and counterpunch as we go, and keep from getting backed into any corners.

    But I agree that awareness of the work environment alone causes both of us to keep things civil and within courteous bounds.
    I hear all of that! I always want to limit how often my Te is going to get triggered by something and try hard to recognize when it is being engaged. Sometime I let it go under limited conditions like message boards though.

    Sometimes for me too, I don't want to know their more extreme political/religious views because of my own reaction to that and how it may change my perceptions of people that I just want to keep things professional and acquaintanceship level friendly with.

  3. #93
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    At first I was going to suggest that you're engaging in some hyperbole. They literally yell at you? But then I recalled that you're quite a bit younger than me (I'm in my 50s). If you're still in your teens or early 20s, people could well yell at you. People see a youngster playing the introvert, and they take it upon themselves to bully him into socializing for his own good.

    A couple more years will make a big difference. People will grant you more room to call your own shots and determine how you want to use your own time.
    Maybe the people here aren't understanding the context of my complaints -- I'm fifteen years old. Everything social is intrusive and I'll rebel to anything.




    Well, that's not bad. At least you're conversing occasionally.

    Again, a couple more years should help. People will get off your back and give you some space, and then hopefully you'll find your own reasons to seek out more conversational opportunities.

    I grant it's tough to see the value of an uncomfortable skill when everyone is forcing it on you from all sides. For now it's enough that you have some occasional success with the 'natural' conversations. Later when you get some breathing room, you can build from that foundation at your leisure.
    I can converse. I can be nice (but not 'pleasant'). I just can't be forced into anything. As soon as there's the pressure of being 'forced' or 'trapped,' first instinct is to escape, next is to fight, and the third one is to play dead. Force is a poor way to get me to do anything. I may do what someone wants, but I'll only do it if there's no pressure from anyone but myself.

    I need space. A lot of space.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #94
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Haphazard, I have a fifteen year old (probably) INTJ daughter. She goes out of her way to make her classmates think she's crazy so they'll leave her alone. She also has me make up arbitrary rules and family events so her friends won't come over to our house all the time and bug her while she's trying to read.

    Maybe it's because our introverted household has no social life, but people seem to mostly leave her alone. The few friends that I have and the few relatives we do anything with know that she's just quiet. She's always been like that. I am protective and would more than likely attempt to bail her out if I saw she was being interrogated.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ...Sometimes for me too, I don't want to know their more extreme political/religious views because of my own reaction to that and how it may change my perceptions of people that I just want to keep things professional and acquaintanceship level friendly with.
    A very interesting exchange between you and FL, keep going!

    This quoted paragraph was particular eye-opening (because I'm naturally more interested in knowing the information, to better understand them, then to not know it at all and thus not understand them.)

    The dentist thing? The huge majority of my technicians have always been chatty S females. When I was 20, I would have been horribly intimidated and closed off; nowadays I take it in stride and actually enjoy the conversation... although if I had to live with them and that's where things stayed, I would soon go nutbar.

    My dentist is a hoot, btw. He's an ENTJ. Strong confident exterior, confident, comes right in, controls the conversation, does his job (usually the bare minimal he needs, he goes right to the potential problem areas), talks about a few manly things, then shakes my hand and leaves.

    I realized early on he wasn't a complete flake when I had a copy of Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe" with me to read, and he just glanced at it as he came in and said, "Oh, yeah, I read that," and proceeded to give me a very swift critique. (Now that's something I wasn't anticipating.)

    In any case, his conversation style was very different from the Fe gals.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #96
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Haphazard, I have a fifteen year old (probably) INTJ daughter. She goes out of her way to make her classmates think she's crazy so they'll leave her alone. She also has me make up arbitrary rules and family events so her friends won't come over to our house all the time and bug her while she's trying to read.

    Maybe it's because our introverted household has no social life, but people seem to mostly leave her alone. The few friends that I have and the few relatives we do anything with know that she's just quiet. She's always been like that. I am protective and would more than likely attempt to bail her out if I saw she was being interrogated.
    Most of my classmates think I'm crazy without me having to do anything. It's really not that hard.

    My entire family is introverts and has little social life, but both parents, I believe, have relatively strong Si (Mother - ISFJ, Father - INTP) and drag me along to places because that's what they think that's what 'they need to do.' If the people know me, they might not think much of me taking a book or something, but usually they don't know me well and usually they have the urge to start an interrogation. Nobody stops them. In fact, I usually get more urging from my parents because they think what I do is 'interesting.' They just love to brag about me when I'd rather just be left alone.

    I'm not much allowed to have a social life outside of these terribly awkward and uncomfortable confrontations because my room is so much of a 'mess' that mother would be mortified if anybody saw it, and I refuse to clean because I know that if I clean it up I'll never find anything. So, even if I'd like to take friends over to my house, I can't.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    One key thing here, is that extroverts will tend to believe (and sometimes tell) introverts that there is something wrong with them, because they don't share the need to live outside their heads.
    quote for truth =)

  8. #98
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That is fortunate for you. I have had issues with being distrusted by Fe doms and my not knowing how to speak their language my whole life (that's something BW hit right on the head) and they are everwhere in abundance so not understanding them can be a sort of handicap in this world. This forum is the only place where the issue is discussed in any type of detail. That could be why it seems to be perhaps overdiscussed.

    I have been so frustrated with the "why aren't you smiling" and "why won't you open up and let us help you" stuff at jobs where I had no wish to offend or insult anyone and yet just being myself was an affront.

    I find BW's work here very helpful to understand that these people weren't being purposely invasive and pushy, they really could not help feeling or acting in these ways. That makes it a lot easier to have some sort of understanding or empathy for why they would chose to create conflict instead of simply leaving me alone as I so badly wished them to and tried to find tactful ways of letting them know.

    The anger and frustration that they often displayed over something as trvial as the smile issue puzzled me. Now it does not so much. They need external reassurance to feel like everything is okay? Well, that is hard for me to fathom but I can try harder if the truth can be talked about openly.
    I just thought I should mention that I experience the same things. I end up forcing a smile on a daily basis so people wont ask me "what's wrong???". Just because I'm not smiling doesn't mean I'm not happy. In fact, most of the time it means I'm concentrating on my thoughts or absorbed into something else. I never understood why I have to smile while I think; ridiculous!

    I don't think I understand why Fe and Fi have a distinct type of conflict. All I have understood from this thread is that Fe people express concern that is not wanted from people with Fi. Is this thread mainly discussing people with dominate Fe and Fi? That might clarify some things for me.

    So, can someone elaborate for me what the opposition between the two is?
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  9. #99
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    ^^ Each side is saying "Stop judging me!" yet no one is listening.^^ That is what I am getting anyway.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  10. #100
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    I just thought I should mention that I experience the same things. I end up forcing a smile on a daily basis so people wont ask me "what's wrong???". Just because I'm not smiling doesn't mean I'm not happy. In fact, most of the time it means I'm concentrating on my thoughts or absorbed into something else. I never understood why I have to smile while I think; ridiculous!

    I don't think I understand why Fe and Fi have a distinct type of conflict. All I have understood from this thread is that Fe people express concern that is not wanted from people with Fi. Is this thread mainly discussing people with dominate Fe and Fi? That might clarify some things for me.

    So, can someone elaborate for me what the opposition between the two is?
    I'm not exactly primarily based on Fe OR Fi, but all my life I've been wondering why these people have been trying to force me to communicate their way, always wanting to know everything about me, poking and prodding and running their verbal feelers all over me whenever I left the comfort and safety of my own home.

    And now I think I understand the source of why so many people do this -- because, it's "normal," you know -- and I don't know whether to be even more upset or just leave it and try to avoid it.

    The simple fact of the matter is that I don't want to be bothered. I don't want to share. I'm a greedy little child and I don't want my activities, no matter how trivial, to be pried away from me as communicative, connective fodder. Put that together with having little control over my own expression, and we have ourselves a recipe for disaster with typical Fe types.

    I think the thread has become a bitch-fest. Fe thinks Fi is too greedy, Fi thinks Fe is too nosy. The end.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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