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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    If you just tell her that you think her life style is pathetic there will only be bad consequences. She will either; stop thinking of you as a friend entirely, allow your words to reinforce the lack of self respect and confidence she already had or provoke her to demonstrate how much control she does have which could express itself in a number of ways but would probably start with cutting you out of her life.
    That's so accurate

    From my own experience, I would predict the following: If you make her trust you and open up, and then hurt her by judging her, she will forever have a bad feeling about trusting you.

    She might not cut you entirely out of her life but probably just write you of as someone she can only trust this much. She probably will not let you know that you got demoted because she don't want to hurt you back!

  2. #12
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    ENFPs are difficult to handle cause what none of them will tell you is that they can drag everyone down with them... not consciously but still it happens.

    Basically you'll find that a depressed ENFP usually knows exactly whats up and what their choices are. The thing I've found most true is that an ENFP is depressed because they don't like any of the choices.

    See I've found that usually the ENFP in question is not actually working things out with me it's more that they have to vent all the panic and such into a display of emotion and vehemence... not for my benefit or to inform my advice but to try and get me to see why they are the way they are and how I can't help them cause no choice is the "right" one.

    Now the point to this is usually to try to understand why they are the way they are and no more. All options will be refused (usually), logic is evil (that one always make me laugh later), 'no you don't understand them and never will!!' and so on. Basically they don't want to move until they have to or a decent enough option comes up (or they get tired of putting so much effort into remaining still)... then they usually formulate their own answers.

    If you want to engage then that can help (there's no guarantees though) but avoid at all costs making value judgements or being dictatorial... well unless it is understood that you aren't being divisive or harmful. Honesty can work and even being brutally honest can work if only to get more detail and help them walk through things in their heads (which I think is the objective point behind the ramble). It just has to be established beforehand the reasoning behind your approach and agreed that nothing will be taken to heart (which usually includes you not taking it to heart when you get called all the names under the sun... I swear that annoyed ENFPs have tourettes temporarily!).

    Basically from what I can figure is that an ENFP works a little like an INTJ in some ways... they have lots of aquaintances and a few good friends. The good friends, the ones they keep and don't fuss over and don't stress about, are the ones who stand by them come hell or high water and ARE the type to punch them on the nose if they are going wrong. Now whether they accept them as being able to do that before or after it is first done is probably no less complex and ridiculous a thought strain than the chicken and the egg.

    Oh and final note, even if you are an accepted "stand by me" friend... it's considered courteous to still negotiate the whole "I'm going to be brutally honest okay?" first. Being accepted just usually provides some insurance if you err and speed the process up.

    (Proving I'm a P ) Just one more thing... as I've found out recently, sometimes you'll get lead around an argument to kind of take you on a path so you see all the nuances of their perspective and situation.. the fight will not be solved. It is merely an exercise to make sure you're both familiar with the situation.

    [Proviso. This is based on only three ENFPs which I know in real life. I'm not an authority and claiming to be would only bring the fury of said ENFPs on my head. I'm just chipping in to see what you think.]
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    stuff...
    Ah Xander, you really are getting there, still some way to go, but you are getting there!

    By the way it isn't so much that logic is evil, just your Ti heavy approach finds it difficult to accomdate the information we used to make our decisions. As I have said on numerous occasions, I'm rarelly illogicaly, just that I value the data differently.

    As for the ranting and going round and round, it serves a couple of purposes, I think, one is to help you understand where I am, and why I'm feeling/thinking what I am and what I have considered so far, the other is to see if you spot something I haven't.

    That is where conflict arrises, because normally I've obessed so much, and the differences with regards to how we value data means you spot something that would key to you, and thinking I've missed it you bring it up, I then explain (sometimes with turettes) that I've considered it and don't you understand X,Y,Z... etc.

    I do however value the input even if it causes a large explosion.

    The suggestion that these times are mostly when the ENFP is expending energy to remain still, to consider their options, is apt. Fear of making a mistake traps us, fear of hurting others and more importantly ourselves. Eventually we have to move though, so the staying still, could be caused by a dislike for all the options as you suggest or because they like a couple just no clear winner.

    The offence comes when someone belittles or patronises the process, that where the real explosions come. These people say things like "It's simple you need to do this, or that or the other" This drive me nuts, I mean do you think I haven't thought of that? (If i genuinely haven't then you'll get an "oh.. hmm...." reply) Also the thought is, haven't you been listening because when I said that to that question and answered this to that one even earlier, that implies the other which should explain why your suggestion is a no go!! Der brain... lol

    basically I think it's best if ENPFs simply learn something as early as possible... (excluding health issues) even in the worst case scenario, everyone will eventually be ok anyway, and that you have to break a few eggs to make an omellete. We can't get through life without hurting people, and ourselves or getting hurt by return. That doesn't make us bad, just human, and even if we pick the wrong option and everyone hurts, in 6 months it wont be so bad....

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Stuff?

    As I said you're not the only egg I've made omelettes with m'duck.

    I recognise and accept the differences you have drawn and indeed were I to write it again I would include such clauses (when we're talking ENFP there is no such thing as too many clauses ). However do you also note that any request for information on ENFPs draws all ENFPs out. Now I'm not (re-read that bit .. I said NOT ) saying that such is wrong but it occurs to me that ENFPs are prone to thinking that they are very aware of themselves and their condition. Now I wouldn't say that such is untrue but it does tend to be very much from the perspective of that condition. For example, how many ENFPs would advise arguing with an upset ENFP to reach a decision? Wouldn't they offer sympathy as the first course of action? (Sympathy being possibly bad for the whole enabling argument which I'm not going to trawl through).

    To conclude, an ENFP is always sure that they know themselves and yet seem unable to make personal decisions. Perhaps such proximity is bad? Perhaps the approach which is most foreign is the one they should try... hence your advice to behave as an INTJ sometimes.

    Just food for thought...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Stuff?

    As I said you're not the only egg I've made omelettes with m'duck.

    I recognise and accept the differences you have drawn and indeed were I to write it again I would include such clauses (when we're talking ENFP there is no such thing as too many clauses ). However do you also note that any request for information on ENFPs draws all ENFPs out. Now I'm not (re-read that bit .. I said NOT ) saying that such is wrong but it occurs to me that ENFPs are prone to thinking that they are very aware of themselves and their condition. Now I wouldn't say that such is untrue but it does tend to be very much from the perspective of that condition. For example, how many ENFPs would advise arguing with an upset ENFP to reach a decision? Wouldn't they offer sympathy as the first course of action? (Sympathy being possibly bad for the whole enabling argument which I'm not going to trawl through).

    To conclude, an ENFP is always sure that they know themselves and yet seem unable to make personal decisions. Perhaps such proximity is bad? Perhaps the approach which is most foreign is the one they should try... hence your advice to behave as an INTJ sometimes.

    Just food for thought...

    The problem is with not knowing the realities of the friendship in question. Someone could advise you to argue with an upset me, but you would have to admit the times where that has a productive response is far from 100%. Not knowing how close these two are suggests a careful approach. Also the op said that they thought the enfps life was pathetic, and so I induced that they weren't close enough for that kind of interaction, or that they probably were not.

    Coming back to knowing ourselves, I still maintain that I know myself better than most others. Why? Not cos I was born some guru or the like, but merely because I have and do spend a lot of effort pulling apart my decisions and choices and feelings in an effort to understand myself, which is probably a toffee concept anyway. The difficulty sometimes arrises from the fact that I atleast have few set in concret values or principals. I bend them often, and sometimes responed like they are ridged. What I mean is that while I maintain I have a reasonable idea about who and what I am personally, this can still morph into uncertainty over personal decisions. The key to when this happens, is when that persona decision effects others. If I lived in a vacuum I could happily make my decisions to please myself, however I don't. I've also torn apart the decision making process that has led to mistakes in the past, some of which I was absolutely certain weren't mistakes at the time. This creates self doubt. The indecision is because I know myself well enough to know I haven't got a clue, half the time, what the best option is! Not even for me, and that has been due to an introspective process where I have questioned the assumptions and premisses that underpinned past choices.

    In otherwords, I know my self well enough to understand that I'm inconsistent, and that if i really i'm inexplictable inconisistent occasionally how the heck is someone who sees the world so very differently going to have sussed me out? They may think they know me, just like I did, but even if they do, they cant not see how I intrepret the world (not exactly) and so lack the ability to communicate it.

    In otherwords I reject the premise that you know me better than I do, to admit that means there must be self deception in me, and if there is, which their could be, it's bloody deep.

  6. #16
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    The problem is with not knowing the realities of the friendship in question. Someone could advise you to argue with an upset me, but you would have to admit the times where that has a productive response is far from 100%. Not knowing how close these two are suggests a careful approach. Also the op said that they thought the enfps life was pathetic, and so I induced that they weren't close enough for that kind of interaction, or that they probably were not.

    Coming back to knowing ourselves, I still maintain that I know myself better than most others. Why? Not cos I was born some guru or the like, but merely because I have and do spend a lot of effort pulling apart my decisions and choices and feelings in an effort to understand myself, which is probably a toffee concept anyway. The difficulty sometimes arrises from the fact that I atleast have few set in concret values or principals. I bend them often, and sometimes responed like they are ridged. What I mean is that while I maintain I have a reasonable idea about who and what I am personally, this can still morph into uncertainty over personal decisions. The key to when this happens, is when that persona decision effects others. If I lived in a vacuum I could happily make my decisions to please myself, however I don't. I've also torn apart the decision making process that has led to mistakes in the past, some of which I was absolutely certain weren't mistakes at the time. This creates self doubt. The indecision is because I know myself well enough to know I haven't got a clue, half the time, what the best option is! Not even for me, and that has been due to an introspective process where I have questioned the assumptions and premisses that underpinned past choices.

    In otherwords, I know my self well enough to understand that I'm inconsistent, and that if i really i'm inexplictable inconisistent occasionally how the heck is someone who sees the world so very differently going to have sussed me out? They may think they know me, just like I did, but even if they do, they cant not see how I intrepret the world (not exactly) and so lack the ability to communicate it.

    In otherwords I reject the premise that you know me better than I do, to admit that means there must be self deception in me, and if there is, which their could be, it's bloody deep.
    Dom know's himself best.
    Dom know's 1.2% of himself.. other's know 1.1% of him.
    Dom know's himself totally = 100% = not possible.

    Your computer malfunctions, do you
    #1 take it to the guy you know who has once removed the case from his PC
    #2 take it to the professional who's worked on thousands
    #3 consult your mate and then take it to a professional

    See I'd admit you are liable to know more than probably everyone else.. singularly. However would you ever say that on any subject you are THE authority and that no other insight given can be of use?

    Do you recall Johari's window? Do you recall when you said "I don't think I am an ENFP"?

    The biggest fight we ever have is the one that goes "how can you know what's best for me? I don't know and I AM me!!". Such thinking is generally good but on occasion can blind a person to the idea that someone else may see something that the inhabitant of that personality does not.

    I still say it's all about balance.

    *waits patiently for full fight to kick off in serenity*
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Dom know's himself best.
    Dom know's 1.2% of himself.. other's know 1.1% of him.
    Dom know's himself totally = 100% = not possible.

    Your computer malfunctions, do you
    #1 take it to the guy you know who has once removed the case from his PC
    #2 take it to the professional who's worked on thousands
    #3 consult your mate and then take it to a professional

    See I'd admit you are liable to know more than probably everyone else.. singularly. However would you ever say that on any subject you are THE authority and that no other insight given can be of use?

    Do you recall Johari's window? Do you recall when you said "I don't think I am an ENFP"?

    The biggest fight we ever have is the one that goes "how can you know what's best for me? I don't know and I AM me!!". Such thinking is generally good but on occasion can blind a person to the idea that someone else may see something that the inhabitant of that personality does not.

    I still say it's all about balance.

    *waits patiently for full fight to kick off in serenity*
    Oh I want in!!!

    All I really have to say (besides the fact that he did say he didn't know himself 100%) is that if anyone told me they knew what was best for me I'd tell them where to shove that too. I have.

    And you know you would too.

    You come off too J about it, that's all.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Dom know's himself best.
    Dom know's 1.2% of himself.. other's know 1.1% of him.
    Dom know's himself totally = 100% = not possible.

    Your computer malfunctions, do you
    #1 take it to the guy you know who has once removed the case from his PC
    #2 take it to the professional who's worked on thousands
    #3 consult your mate and then take it to a professional

    See I'd admit you are liable to know more than probably everyone else.. singularly. However would you ever say that on any subject you are THE authority and that no other insight given can be of use?

    Do you recall Johari's window? Do you recall when you said "I don't think I am an ENFP"?

    The biggest fight we ever have is the one that goes "how can you know what's best for me? I don't know and I AM me!!". Such thinking is generally good but on occasion can blind a person to the idea that someone else may see something that the inhabitant of that personality does not.

    I still say it's all about balance.

    *waits patiently for full fight to kick off in serenity*

    Of course I rejected being ENFP, I'm an ENFP and someone just told me who/what I am.. I wasn't standing for that! lol... once i realised what it meant I had to admit that I am one. Though perhaps not typical, but then I'm of the opinion that there are fewer people who are typical of their types than not... lol

    I never ever said that someone else's opinion couldn't be useful or informative and I never suggested that it wasn not possible for them to spot something I've missed. Don't turn my assertion that I know myself better than anyone else does into a pretence that I think I have myself down anymore than the 1.2% you suggest!

    hehe

    anyway, sure Xander you could offer a perspective I haven't considered but that doesn't mean you are right. And it is for me to consider it and revise my position or not. If you think hard you'll notice that sometimes, I do say.. I hadn't thought of that, and think on it a while before responding with how I think it can be incorporated or why it needs to be rejected. It is when you insist, or i perceive that you are insisting that I incorporate it, or when I've already thought of and rejected it that we head into trouble!

  9. #19
    Member Battle's Avatar
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    im a depressed enfp right now... have been for going on 3+ years now


  10. #20
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    If you want to help, just STFU and listen. If you understand how she could be upset, tell her you understand and relate an experience of your own without saying how you overcame it. Wait for her to ask YOU for advice. Then take her out somewhere you think she'll have fun and maybe forget about her troubles, like sushi or ice cream. If you're having problems figuring out what to say because all you want to do is talk about her situation, go do something that doesn't require conversation like a movie or the arcade, or get wasted with some friends and play card games.

    G'luck.

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