[ENFP] Boy Advice for My ENFP Sister

[Zarathustra]

If ya want, I'm willing to hammer out a less detailed system for general reference

Please do.

My Te doesn't have the patience to even read that monster.

 

[Amargith]

Please do.

My Te doesn't have the patience to even read that monster.

Then perhaps your Fi should emplore your Te to bite its tongue and behave while it helps you through that monster


Let's see..first aid kits for NTJs....ehhmmmm *ponders*


Case 1: NFP asks for your help with something practical

This is usually where you boys shine. And this one should be easiest for ya. Walk her through how *you* would address the problem and don't skip over things that you consider blatantly obvious. Doing it from your own personal pov, will allow her to identify which parts will work for her and which ones are specific to your personality. Be ready to repeat yourself occasionally, and go through it once or twice. Most importantly: do *NOT* expect her to act upon your advice ,as she'll likely use it to reflect on and pick out the bits that apply to her. So don't let your pride get the better of you here, when she doesn't follow explicit orders.

And pllz, for the love of god, try and either get rid of your impatience and frustration or at least be good at hiding, or you'll find the person catering to your emotional needs instead of her practical ones

Case 2: Helping out someone who's facing a problem (emotional with potentially a side of practical).

Ask them to first tell you what *exactly* they're struggling with. Determine whether the problem is just practical and it's something they just don't know how to do (see above), or if it's something they cannot do due to internal struggle (fear, insecurity, apprehension, anxiety). If the latter, get them to talk about what keeps them from addressing the issue. Keep your suggestions for dealing with that to yourself for the moment, sticking only to asking questions as to how that works for them (aka NO judgement) and allowing their Fi space to self-reflect. Important here is to *ACKNOWLEDGE* that they're allowed to feel this way, even if those feelings are the cause of them being blocked. If you don't wanna do the q&a, then at the very least do this (and let them self-reflect in peace after having talked to you). The reason that this is important is that people can't change the way they feel and often need to hear that that's ok, before they can come to terms with those feelings and move past em. After they've expressed themselves, go back to case one and go: well, this is how I would address it, and this is where i'd start'


Case 3: Someone wants a sounding board to sort out what's in their head

This is basically them asking you to do Q&A with them, so they can hear their thoughts out loud. Important to ask is not 'what do you plan to do about it' but 'why do you feel this way about that?'and giving them the time to actually answer these questions. Be genuinely curious with them as to why this is happening to them, and even if you know the answer, take them through the q&a in order to get them to arrive at the answer themselves. You can lead the convo a little, but self-realization is often a better way to get them to see your point than 'telling them how (you perceive) it is.'


Emergency band-aid:

If you're uncomfortable with asking questions, be there to rant at, hug, and reassure them they're not evil incarnate, or incompetent (even if they are on this particular issue) and give them space while not feeling abandonned. Let yourself answer their questions honestly as it pertains to you specifically when they ask them, without that dose of 'this is how you *SHOULD* do things' in your replies. Your replies will contain information as to what works for you and what could potentially be used for themselves. Again, don't be hurt if they don't copy your advice to a T



....was this more digestable?

 

[Zarathustra]

....was this more digestable?

...

Ummmm... could you just make some bullet points that explain how to accomplish the desired result?

 

[Amargith]

...

Ummm... could you just make some bullet points as to how to accomplish the desired result?

LOL, I just did, just pick which case you have in front of you

Ok, the bare skeletal structure then *ffs*:

1) person asks for help
2) determine whether practical or emotional help or both
3) if practical: hide impatience and frustration, show them step by step how you'd address the problem, walking her trhough even the glaringly obvious shit
4) if emotional: ask questions as to why she feels that way and listen. Let her rant, and answer her own questions by doing so. Reassure that she's not evil or a failure and that it's ok to feel this way, and she'll get there eventually
5) if both, then begin with 4) and go over into 3)


Better?

 

[Zarathustra]

Better?

So much better!

 

[Zarathustra]

Ok, so two questions:

3) if practical: hide impatience and frustration, show them step by step how you'd address the problem, walking her trhough even the glaringly obvious shit

Why are you guys so bad at this that even the glaringly obvious shit needs to be pointed out?

Like, hasn't life in some way forced you to at least be able to figure out the most glaringly obvious shit?

And, honestly, I'm genuinely not asking this to be nasty; I'm just trying to understand it fully from your point of view.

4) if emotional: ask questions as to why she feels that way and listen. Let her rant, and answer her own questions by doing so. Reassure that she's not evil or a failure and that it's ok to feel this way, and she'll get there eventually

Ok, but what if she is evil or a failure?

I mean, seriously, what if it's just plain wrong what she's doing/feeling?

I mean, I used to tell my ESFP ex that I truly expected her to stab me one day.

I don't think all feelings are justified, so why should I just pretend like I do?

 

[Amargith]

Ok, two questions:



Why are you guys so bad at this that even the glaringly obvious shit needs to be pointed out?

*raises eyebrow* Why are you so glaringly oblivious as to how to tailor your message to your audience? I thought efficiency (in this case, in communication) was one of your values?

...for the same reason that we need someone elses pov in order to identify the first step in a process that eludes you:

It's an unfamiliar way of looking at things

You have to realize that you guys have been doing this since you were young. Identify mission, identify obstacles, identify how to break down obstacle, start step one. It's the same system and you've had plenty of practice over the years. It's like asking someone who's never used a computer why it is that they don't know what an operating system is, or how they don't know how a web browser works (I had to teach that to my mom recently, holy f*ck!). Those things are so engrained into your routine you don't even realize that you, at some point, also had to be told that these were vital components to getting started

And, honestly, I'm not asking this to be nasty; I'm just trying to understand it fully from your point of view.

Ok, but what if she is evil or a failure?

I mean, seriously, what if it's just plain wrong what she's doing/feeling?

Then tell her anyways. How is you confirming her *worst* nightmare going to help her get out of that sink hole you think? By hating herself even more?

As for your idea of the fact that one can be evil or wrong...I happen to disagree with that. Vehemently. Whatever you are feeling as a human, it is part of your nature. Sure, some of it can be incredibly dark, but that too is part of being human. Humans are flawed, there's no question about that, but then it would be arrogant to consider one capable of perfection. It would be boring, static and it would make us something we're not: God.

We're humans. Humans make mistakes. And humans are flawed. But they also learn and grow. Those dark feelings she's experiencing? They're teaching her about who she is. And there's *NOTHING* wrong with who she is. Or what she feels.

I won't deny that dark feelings can lead to actions which can cause a lot of evil as such. But those dark feelings have a source. Shut down the source, and you shut down the 'evil' actions. The actions, nor the feelings make a person evil. Intention can make someone seem evil, but in my experience, that's usually a defense mechanism motivated by intense fear and pain. As for incompetent..she can be incompetent for a task, right now, at this time. But she's human. And that means she c an learn to be competent. She, as a person, is not incompetent or a failure. She is incompetent or failed at this task, in this moment, right now. That doesn't make her a failure overall

As for your edit: I'm not saying that all feelings are justified. I said that all feelings are valid. See the difference? Acknowledging feelings doesn't mean that you think one should act on them. It means you recognize their existence, and consider that existence as allowed. What to do with those feelings after that, is yet to be decided. But at least allow them to exist. Acknowledge them

Then ask her if she thinks its a good idea to act on them, or if there's perhaps a better way to get what she wants. And ask her what it is in the first place she wants.

...and lemme guess, she was a fellow sx-dom? Honestly, I aint surprised at one of your exes giving you that feeling at all

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

^ you have a much rosier view of people than I suspect NTJ's do.

 

[Amargith]

Grin. I think you'd reconsider that statement if you knew how truly dark I'm willing to acknowledge people are. The thing is, it doesn't scare me. Or make me uncomfortable. To me, it' kind of like handling a wild animal: use caution. I'm not going to blame the animal for being wild in the first place, it is who it is, and therefore beautiful in its own right....that however doesn't mean I will let it take a chunk out of me coz I don't see its potential for carnage. And if I am stupid enough to actually get bitten, I'll take full responsibility, as I knew what I was getting myself into. I aint about to blame the animal.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Grin. I think you'd reconsider that statement if you knew how truly dark I'm willing to acknowledge people are. The thing is, it doesn't scare me. Or make me uncomfortable. To me, it' kind of like handling a wild animal: use caution. I'm not going to blame the animal for being wild in the first place, it is who it is, and therefore beautiful in its own right....that however doesn't mean I will let it take a chunk out of me coz I don't see its potential for carnage. And if I am stupid enough to actually get bitten, I'll take full responsibility, as I knew what I was getting myself into. I aint about to blame the animal.

If an animal has a history of biting people, I have no problem with swift punishment. People must be held accountable for things they do repeatably. I have no problem with trying to play the "I feel your pain" game with the offender, but I'm also not going to let my sympathy for their plight endanger me or anyone else I care about.

 

[Amargith]

If an animal has a history of biting people, I have no problem with swift punishment. People must be held accountable for things they do repeatably. I have no problem with trying to play the "I feel your pain" game with the offender, but I'm also not going to let my sympathy for their plight endanger me or anyone else I care about.

And what will your punishment accomplish? Or is it your idea to teach it even more distrust of people, to make it more aggressive and fearful? If the animal has a history of biting people, wear gloves, or don't approach it. Simple. And frankly, if you or any of those who you care for it go near it and actually are stupid enough to make it bite them as they don't respect its boundaries, then I'd say you get what you have coming.

Self-defense is one thing, if it's between you or the animal. As is initiated aggression without a way to avoid the attack or being able to talk it down. But even then it should only be to protect yourself, not to harm the animal, imo.

The same is true for humans. You have no idea what they went through to become the way they did. Until you make it a point to find out, you have no grounds for judging it. Or its actions. Nor do you have to find out, but then navigate its territory with care, not with hostility.

 

[Red Herring]

Ehhm, how is any of this related to Wind-Up Rex's sister?

This might be material for a thread of it's own, if you want to continue the discussion...

 

[Amargith]

Agreed, i was just thinking that..though Rex has been intrigued in the difference in thinking between NFPs and NTJs before, so not sure

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

And what will your punishment accomplish? Or is it your idea to teach it even more distrust of people, to make it more aggressive and fearful? If the animal has a history of biting people, wear gloves, or don't approach it. Simple. And frankly, if you or any of those who you care for it go near it and actually are stupid enough to make it bite them as they don't respect its boundaries, then I'd say you get what you have coming.

Self-defense is one thing, if it's between you or the animal. As is initiated aggression without a way to avoid the attack or being able to talk it down. But even then it should only be to protect yourself, not to harm the animal, imo.

The same is true for humans. You have no idea what they went through to become the way they did. Until you make it a point to find out, you have no grounds for judging it. Or its actions. Nor do you have to find out, but then navigate its territory with care, not with hostility.

I should have said if a person has a history of hurting people.

If an animal has a history of biting people it gets put down (given that the bites are serious), regardless of what I think about the matter.

I was talking about people the whole time and only used the term animal to continue your use of it from the prior post.

Regarding people. Below the threshold of violent crime I don't care what their fault was by and large. Above that threshold (and other crimes that have similar levels of measurable harm) societies interest in preventing them from commiting those crimes again supersedes any concerns I may have about their back story and why they did what they did. Especially if there is an established pattern of behavior.

I have similar thoughts regarding lesser levels of hurt inflicted on each other. I'll put up with a lot, but if you cross a certain threshold I'll let my opinion be known.

Ehhm, how is any of this related to Wind-Up Rex's sister?

This might be material for a thread of it's own, if you want to continue the discussion...

It doesn't relate I'll leave well enough alone.

 

[violet_crown]

Ehhm, how is any of this related to Wind-Up Rex's sister?

This might be material for a thread of it's own, if you want to continue the discussion...

Agreed, i was just thinking that..though Rex has been intrigued in the difference in thinking between NFPs and NTJs before, so not sure

Not sure how much say the OP gets in these things buuut...

Things did start to get a bit off track after post #88, but what the hell? We're all friends here. It's not exactly urgent that anything be moved.

 

[Amargith]

Not sure how much say the OP gets in these things buuut...

Things did start to get a bit off track after post #88, but what the hell? We're all friends here. It's not exactly urgent that anything be moved.

I'm ok with posts being moved, if you prefer the thread neat, it sorta just spiraled out of control by accident

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Sorry.

 

[animenagai]

Aren't you getting a degree of some sort in Philosophy?

What better way to overcome the irrationality of the Passions (emotion) than the guiding light of Reason?

Also, just a side note (since you mentioned the enneagram): what you stated about NFPs sounded a lot like an enneagram 4.

And if you know enough about philosophy, you know that you won't convince any philosopher by just using quotes

Emotional problems require emotional answers, it's really that simple. We really aren't projecting anything dude, you've said time after time that she needs a harsh dose of reality. Telling her straight up is simply not going to change anything. Once again, I find it odd that you call our approaches 'irrational'. I don't think you can accept the existence of questions outside the realm of logic. I mean don't get me wrong, the answer needs to solve something and be reasonable, but rationality in your pure Te eyes is not the desired approach here. It's like a scientist trying to carry out an empirical experiment to create a great work of art. Apples and oranges.

PS. Enneagram problems in general ARE emotional. The names of the triads are misleading.

 

[Mia.]

Emotional problems require emotional answers, it's really that simple.

Would you be willing to qualify what you mean by this?

 

[Coriolis]

Emotional problems require emotional answers, it's really that simple. We really aren't projecting anything dude, you've said time after time that she needs a harsh dose of reality. Telling her straight up is simply not going to change anything. Once again, I find it odd that you call our approaches 'irrational'. I don't think you can accept the existence of questions outside the realm of logic. I mean don't get me wrong, the answer needs to solve something and be reasonable, but rationality in your pure Te eyes is not the desired approach here. It's like a scientist trying to carry out an empirical experiment to create a great work of art.

An artist who lacks an empirical understanding of his tools and medium will have trouble expressing his artistic visions. A scientist who has no intuitive feel for his subject of study will miss those anomalous observations that lead to new understandings. It is not apples and oranges but apples and broccoli: fruits and vegetables, and we need both.

Answering emotional problems emotionally is like treating an alcoholic by giving him booze.