[ENFP] Boy Advice for My ENFP Sister

[Zarathustra]

Why is it that girls always (wrongly/retardedly) thought that we enjoyed that?

 

[Amargith]

Why is it that girls always (wrongly/retardedly) thought that we enjoyed that?

Coz playfighting often leads to sex and you seem to enjoy that just fine?

 

[Zarathustra]

Coz playfighting often leads to sex and you seem to enjoy that just fine?

No arguments here, I suppose.

I just wish my 3rd grade self knew it was an invitation to tap that ass.

 

[Amargith]

No arguments here, I suppose.

I just wish my 3rd grade self knew it was an invitation to tap that ass.

Likewise..it's not like guys express themselves any better...



[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION], I will get to this eventually, I swear

 

[Zarathustra]

Likewise..it's not like guys express themselves any better...

Yes, but aren't you all supposed to be "more mature"?

I believe if we went around kicking you in the shins to display our affection, "maturity" is not the descriptor that would be used...

[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION], I will get to this eventually, I swear

It's just gestating...

 

[animenagai]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

I can tell you right now, your methods are not going to work with a more sensitive NFP. You're playing with fire, if you truly understand that emotions are valued above all else by an NFP. The talk of 'rationalising inaction' to me proves that this misses the point. We aren't going to change our actions until we change emotionally.

[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION]

For emotional problems of this sort, I strongly suggest introducing her to the enneagram, though it may take someone who shares her type talking through her issues for it to get anywhere.

 

[Zarathustra]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]

I can tell you right now, your methods are not going to work with a more sensitive NFP. You're playing with fire, if you truly understand that emotions are valued above all else by an NFP. The talk of 'rationalising inaction' to me proves that this misses the point. We aren't going to change our actions until we change emotionally.

Aren't you getting a degree of some sort in Philosophy?

What better way to overcome the irrationality of the Passions (emotion) than the guiding light of Reason?

Also, just a side note (since you mentioned the enneagram): what you stated about NFPs sounded a lot like an enneagram 4.

 

[Amargith]

Let's just say your type of reason isn't exactly beneficial to our health and leave it at that.

 

[Zarathustra]

Let's just say your type of reason isn't exactly beneficial to our health and leave it at that.

Can't do.

I think this is simply cowardice on the part of Te suppressors.

Guess what: if TJs continue to reject Fi and Se/Ne, they don't grow.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the same principle applies for FPs.

 

[Amargith]

Can't do.

I think this is simply cowardice on the part of Te suppressors.

Guess what: if TJs continue to reject Fi and Se/Ne, they don't grow.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the same principle applies for FPs.

Again, your idea is right. Your methodology is blatantly wrong. Stuffing it down our throats will only make us avoid you, rebel against you and refuse to go near the subject again. If that is what you're looking for, then by all means. Actually no, even if that is what you're looking for, it's beyond cruel. The fact that you seem unable to grasp that, is worrying, indeed.

I'm not asking you to be adept at teaching ENFPs, but at least have the common sense not to traumatize them with methods that just aren't suited for them. Don't force us to be INTJs. We're not forcing you to be ENFPs either. And if we do, feel free to call us on it. Forcing an INTJ to Fi like an ENFP is equally traumatizing, from what I've seen.

 

[Zarathustra]

Both you and @animegai have mentioned my "methods" in your most recent posts.

Have I even mentioned what method(s) I would recommend yet?

I think you guys are projecting stuff onto me that I haven't said.

I mean, you, Amar, typified it as "stuffing it down your throats".

Was there a point where I recommended stuffing it down NFPs' throats?

I think you guys are having a negative reaction towards anything rational gaining precedence over your inherent irrationality.

Assuming I am correct, and Te is necessary for the growth of Fi dom's/aux's -- how would you recommend it be properly applied?

 

[Mia.]

Can't do.

I think this is simply cowardice on the part of Te suppressors.

Guess what: if TJs continue to reject Fi and Se/Ne, they don't grow.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the same principle applies for FPs.

They do indeed. And I've worked harder at developing my Te than 90% of the FPs I know. However, I also know what it's like to have a TJ use a fire-hose to spray you down rather than a gentle rain to help you grow. The force can be traumatizing dude. Of course, my TJ when younger I think was particularly harsh. I think even other TJs would have been like wtf. But still, they are right that if you take an FP that isn't already predisposed to the notion of needing to grow, and you use the wrong methods, it will not go well. They have to want to grow, and you have to help them in an appropriate way - which helps you grow as well.

 

[Zarathustra]

They do indeed. And I've worked harder at developing my Te than 90% of the FPs I know. However, I also know what it's like to have a TJ use a fire-hose to spray you down rather than a gentle rain to help you grow. The force can be traumatizing dude. Of course, my TJ when younger I think was particularly harsh. I think even other TJs would have been like wtf. But still, they are right that if you take an FP that isn't already predisposed to the notion of needing to grow, and you use the wrong methods, it will not go well. They have to want to grow, and you have to help them in an appropriate way - which helps you grow as well.

Ok, see, this is getting somewhere.

So you see two main criteria for this process to go well:

1. The FP has to want to grow (and, as such, probably realize that more Te is necessary in their life).
2. The TJ has to use the proper methodology (which, in turn, helps them grow as well).

So, what is the proper methodology?

 

[gromit]

Ok, see, this is getting somewhere.

So you see two main criteria for this process to go well:

1. The FP has to want to grow (and, as such, probably realize that more Te is necessary in their life).
2. The TJ has to use the proper methodology (which, in turn, helps them grow as well).

So, what is the proper methodology?

Developing Te... I find it useful to observe other people in action/imitate. Also sometimes talk through a tricky situation with Te users.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Learning to cater your message to the audience is an invaluable skill Zara.

 

[Amargith]

Well, i promised Rex I'd get to this, so I might as well.

Here's my suggestions for reaching out to her. Keep in mind that I aint her and I don't know her at all, but here goes:

Step 1:

Pique her curiosity. See if you can get her to talk about what she'd like in a man. Weave it into the conversation and do not go 'on a mission to get her see the light' on her. You're just two sisters giggling about guys at this point. You've probably heard what she has to say before, and this isn't meant as an information gathering activity, but more as a way to get her comfortable and focused on the subject. Get her dreaming. Get her to really speak from the heart.

Step 2:

Ask her questions. Why do you want a guy to be that way? And who would you consider a good example of such a man (go Celebrity style on her). Get her relaxed and thinking about real guys (granted, they're unobtainable, but that's what makes them so easy for her to talk about, probalby ). Even allow some fiction heros in there, so she has time to reflect on what she wants in a guy. Then ask her about the guys she's met in life so far. What about them was good, and not so good. And does she even meet new people/guys regularly to widen her pool? What is it that bugs her about the guys she rebuffs? Is it just fear? Ask her what she prefers in a guy from all the qualities she's listed. Make this into a game. 'so ok, ,if you could only have one of the qualities you've listed, which one would take the top?' 'Or would you prefer staying a spinster if that were the case?' This will show how much sense of reality she has as well as force her to face reality in a non-threatening way. We're still just playing 'what-if' at this point anyways. Get her to talk about why she wants him to be so perfect. What is she afraid of? And ask her the question about inner and outer beauty. Tell her how you are fascinated by 'insert guy' because of his flaws, coz they add to his uniqueness, and ask her if she could see that. Engage her empathy. Let her literally see guys through your eyes, engaging her empathy, while feeling safe as this is you we're talking about now.

In short: get her to self-reflect on this entire thing. This could btw double perfectly as a sisterly bonding moment

Step 3: Let her think things through, by closing the convo with: ' You know, I do hope you find your dream prince one day, as I want to see you happy, and become an aunt some day ' But I think you might have some thinking to do about who you want this guy to be..And if you ever wanna go trolling for guys, just for the heck of it, with big sis by your side..you know where to find me

Step 4: follow up. AFter a week, start from step 1. Watch her grow, watch her become more clear on what she wants. Once she's comfortable enough, take her trolling. Encourage her to read up on how love works, and if you identify her fears, as to what caused her to be so defensive...get back to me, coz depending on what they are, you might have to revise your strategy.


A word of caution:

Expect this to take time. This will not happen overnight.

She has to want to change, all you can do is open the door. She has to walk through it. Respect that if she's not ready. Drop the matter, and periodically check back (I'm talking over the course of months).

If she freezes on anything, don't force her, but don't abandon her either. Ask her what's going on and reassure her you're right there, and she can do *whatever* she feels comfortable with, you'll back her. Give her time to work out what caused the freeze, or panick attack, without giving her the space to run away from it and refuse to deal with it. As an NTJ you can provide a bundle of confidence, assurance and trust. Use that to your advantage. And let her buck. Don't restrain her, let her work off that anxiety, before she returns to dealing with the issue. But be there to focus her attention again.

Above all, make sure she wants your help on this. Otherwise the damage to your bond, to the trust you have as sisters, will be severe.

Lastly, keep in mind that NFPs tend to circle things. We think in loops, so we might do a lot of repetition and dancing about. This isn't the same as avoidance or straight bolting from the issue. It kind of looks like spiraling, where you do a lap around the problem, and then another (smaller) lap that brings you just a little closer, and another, and another, until..you find yourself facing the problem.


If any of this looks like way too much work and is over your head, do yourself a favor, don't go there. You're perfectly allowed to pass up on this. This is not a mission or a responsibility. This is just a simple way of helping your sister by being her soundboard as she finds her way through life

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I'm fine with catering my argument to the audience.

But I don't think many NTJ's anywhere have the finesse to pull that off [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION].

 

[Zarathustra]

This is just a simple way...

 

[Amargith]

I'm fine with catering my argument to the audience.

But I don't think many NTJ's anywhere have the finesse to pull that off [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION].

Grin, this is written from an NFP pov, admittedly. I'm also taking into account what I know about the OPs sister, and she seems...delicate and very resistant. It'll take this kind of finesse in order to get through to her, imho, and even then there are no guarantees.

If ya want, I'm willing to hammer out a less detailed system for general reference

 

[Amargith]

Lol, ok for *me*, this is a simple way, but I can see this being a lot of work if you're not used to this kinda thinking
This is also why I took a while to put it in a post and had to let it gestate, as you called it, for a while. I had to think about how exactly I'd approach it and how I'd respond if I were here (not sure if other NFPs agree with me here )

Keep also in mind that this is specifically tailored to help someone with an immense fear. Most situations don't usually require this type of care