• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ENFP] Boy Advice for My ENFP Sister

animenagai

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
1,569
MBTI Type
NeFi
Enneagram
4w3
An artist who lacks an empirical understanding of his tools and medium will have trouble expressing his artistic visions. A scientist who has no intuitive feel for his subject of study will miss those anomalous observations that lead to new understandings. It is not apples and oranges but apples and broccoli: fruits and vegetables, and we need both.

Answering emotional problems emotionally is like treating an alcoholic by giving him booze.

I don't think you realise what I'm saying. Balance is important, but the solutions required for a particular problem often comes from that particular field. With this case that we're talking about here, do you INTJ's REALLY think that Rex and co. haven't tried the usual Te methods? Do you guys really think that just telling her the truth is going to change anything? Do you guys even realise that this ENFP, in all likelihood, knows exactly what's wrong with her yet still has problems with it? Ladies and gentleman, this isn't an example of an everyday ENFP with her problems. This is a particularly unhealthy individual who has grown up in a Te household and does not react well with that form of communication. Chances are she knows all the facts and knows she should change but has certain emotional constraints that she can't let go of. What needs to be done is her to realise why she has this emotional barrier and exactly what she's holding onto/afraid of. Then when she can let this go, it is only then when she could change, this is why I suggested the enneagram. Let me make myself clear, no one here is trying to belittle logic or the place of rational thinking. It simply is not the tool required for this job.
 

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
What needs to be done is her to realise why she has this emotional barrier and exactly what she's holding onto/afraid of. Then when she can let this go, it is only then when she could change.

Enter....*drumroll*..... Te.

 

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
The problem is that the bluntness of Te won't get through to her. It'll need to be Ne + Fi, mostly Fi.

Te does not have to be blunt. It is a neutral process/structure for synthesizing. Fi naturally responds to it, because it is the opposite side of the coin and completes the picture it is wired to put together.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
She won't be able to recognize her own emotional barrier until she can get enough distance from it to see it. This is where the impersonal analysis of Te comes in. Te is not synonymous with bluntness, more with rationality, and I fail to see how "irrational thinking" will do anything but send the individual in question further down her rabbit hole. As Einstein said, "Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them."

Edit: animenagai is right about enneagram, though, since it addresses fundamental motivations/fears and is not tied to any particular cognitive process.
 

animenagai

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
1,569
MBTI Type
NeFi
Enneagram
4w3
Yeah OK, you need some sort of impersonal analysis but ultimately this comes down to the ENFP shifting her personal values. I don't see how this is not Fi. A Te heavy approach like Zarathustra was talking about will not do it. Fi and Te are 2 sides of the same coin, but it'll be Fi more than Te.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I don't think you realise what I'm saying. Balance is important, but the solutions required for a particular problem often comes from that particular field. With this case that we're talking about here, do you INTJ's REALLY think that Rex and co. haven't tried the usual Te methods? Do you guys really think that just telling her the truth is going to change anything? Do you guys even realise that this ENFP, in all likelihood, knows exactly what's wrong with her yet still has problems with it? Ladies and gentleman, this isn't an example of an everyday ENFP with her problems. This is a particularly unhealthy individual who has grown up in a Te household and does not react well with that form of communication. Chances are she knows all the facts and knows she should change but has certain emotional constraints that she can't let go of. What needs to be done is her to realise why she has this emotional barrier and exactly what she's holding onto/afraid of. Then when she can let this go, it is only then when she could change, this is why I suggested the enneagram. Let me make myself clear, no one here is trying to belittle logic or the place of rational thinking. It simply is not the tool required for this job.

I am like this as well :yes:
I need time to process things through my Fi before I can act on them, even when I know where the problem is. It needs to feel *right* first. At first it frustrated me, especially since the outside world tends to go *do something already!'* But I learned, over time, that if I take the problem to muse on the problem, however long that takes, it eventually leads me to put my first step into action, once I figure out how it all fits together and it *feels* right.

That's why backing off and letting new perspectives given to a Fi-user be processed is so important and why demanding action is detrimental

It makes use have to start all over again..like a puzzle we're putting together and you just messed up the pieces coz you demand us to stop thinking about it and finish it already, instead of prepping and pondering by putting the pieces in order before starting the puzzle. And once again, we have to gather all the pieces, sort them out, put them the right way up and start the frame from scratch. It's frustrating to say the least, plus it makes us feel like losers that apparently, we need more time to do something, and even when we do it, it's not up to your standards and is considered 'unproductive' and 'lazy' or simply 'stupid'.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I'm going over some of the more recent posts, and, I'm not sure I'm gunna be able to write a full post right now, so I just want to say that, while I think some of what [MENTION=4894]animenagai[/MENTION] is saying is accurate, I think what [MENTION=15004]Mia.[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] are saying trumps what he is saying. Everything they're reacting negatively to about what you've said, Animegai, is the same stuff I had a negative reaction to. I think your claim that "emotional problems require emotional answers" is not very easy to defend.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I am like this as well :yes:
I need time to process things through my Fi before I can act on them, even when I know where the problem is. It needs to feel *right* first. At first it frustrated me, especially since the outside world tends to go *do something already!'* But I learned, over time, that if I take the problem to muse on the problem, however long that takes, it eventually leads me to put my first step into action, once I figure out how it all fits together and it *feels* right.

That's why backing off and letting new perspectives given to a Fi-user be processed is so important and why demanding action is detrimental
I am not demanding, or even suggesting, action so much as analysis: looking at the situation with as much objectivity and distance as one can muster; seeing it for what it is rather than what one wishes it to be; dissecting, categorizing, labelling, and evaluating things. This process will invariably involve Fi, otherwise one lacks a critical yardstick against which to measure what we observe. Sound decisions and productive actions cannot happen without this. We all know what happens when people act in haste, or essentially go off half-cocked.
 

Red Herring

Superwoman
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
7,498
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
*laughs at bunch of Te users assuming there is an "objective truth" to start with in this specific case which the girl has to face"
 

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
We all know what happens when people act in haste, or essentially go off half-cocked.

And nobody wants just half of a cock. So for goodness sake, just let Te and Fi make their beautiful love already.
 

Red Herring

Superwoman
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
7,498
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Merely giving you something to think about, no intention of trolling. I'll leave the rest to you guys.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
*laughs at bunch of Te users assuming there is an "objective truth" to start with in this specific case which the girl has to face"
There is always an objective truth. It is not always the whole truth, but ignoring it is rarely wise.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I think it is important that any Te analysis is truly distanced. Impersonal and NOT HARSH. For me, laying things down visually on paper is pleasing and gets them "away" from me. Or maybe she likes talking things out. And it's important that she maintains a position of power in the analysis. Neutral analysis must be neutral.

I really think introspection is going to be more important than analysis but maybe Rex can play a very helpful role in terms of helping her take conclusions to reality and to help her stay emotionally balanced when she starts digging in deep. I wouldn't try to structure too much though, she needs to go ALL the way down the Fi rabbit hole and uproot.
 

Priori

New member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
100
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
What needs to be done is her to realize why she has this emotional barrier and exactly what she's holding onto/afraid of.

I completely agree that laying out all the facts and then demanding an ENFP take the logical action based on these facts won’t work. I’ve made that mistake. It will only make her dig in more.

However, what you are describing isn’t an emotional change – having a realization and then making a decision to reach a better outcome is a process of logic. Logic can bring about an emotional change, but I think it’s unlikely to occur here.

If she makes this 'logical' decision, it will be like you say – at her own pace and will come about faster if you leave her to it. But it’s still a logical process concerning emotions and not an emotional process. What would be changing is her approach, not her feelings or values. Her ideal mate, ideal relationship with him/her and her desire to have them woul not change. What may happen is that she decides her ideals/standards are unrealistic* and that if she holds out for her ideal relationship then she’ll either be alone forever or have unfair expectations from anybody she is with. Even if she does accept this, that incomplete feeling – that feeling that there is something more possible will always be there. Being an ENFP, she’ll probably feel guilty about not being completely happy with her current mate too. She may feel she’s not being fair to them emotionally.

If she makes the 'logical' choice to lower her standards when selecting a mate, then she's only supressed her emotions not changed them.

*Even though the most likely scenario is that she decides that her standards are unrealistic, my opinion is that they probably aren’t and that she should keep looking.

Human Relationship Initiation Process Theory (google it, it’s real) states :

  • Relationships usually take place across a person’s “field of availables.” This is people we come across in our day to day lives. Daily or near daily interaction. (It’s hard to form a connection with somebody you don’t see very often.)
  • We are only attracted to people who meet our standards. Standards include such things as Physical attractiveness, intelligence, maturity, warmth, trustworthiness, economic status, and social status
  • We only make overtures to people who we think won’t reject us.
  • We often overestimate the likeliness that somebody will reject us when we are really attracted to them.

While the amount of acquaintances an ENFP has is likely to be much larger than say, an INTP – the actual pool of people we interact with on a daily basis is fairly small, even for an ENFP. I mean how many people do we talk to for more than five minutes every day of the week? Less than thirty? Less than ten? How many of them are the gender we are interested in? How many are single? How many of those would we like to date? How many of those would like to date us?

My point being, in a given month we may meet or bump into hundreds of people, and thus it feels like our pool of potential mates is rather large – but the pool of people we interact with long enough and frequently enough to form a connection with is actually super tiny.

I suspect that this is a common issue for ENFx actually. High standards from an idealized view of romance, combined with a high fear of rejection and compounded by misjudging the true size of the pool of available mates in their life makes it seem to them as if they are destined to be unhappy in love. "I meet so many people, but I'm unable to make that connection I'm looking for"

I would say then, that smacking them upside the head and telling them that their standards are just too darn high is a grave injustice to them and their soulmate. I think an ENFx's dream romance isn't unrealistic or impossible - it just seems that way.

The problem isn’t their high standards, but is instead their unfounded fear of rejection and limited exposure to possible mates. Therefore my advice would be; be bold, be forward, don’t give up, look under every rock even it takes until your fifty and shine on you crazy diamond.
 
Top