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  1. #51
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think this is really on-topic, though, so we should probably leave this discussion for elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I was about to suggest the same thing, though I'm not sure if it will help @Wind-Up Rex perhaps prepare herself for doing the big sister thing and helping her sister face reality
    Per usual, Amargith is on point with her assessment. I was actually enjoying the exchange. From the lovely people in this thread, I've gotten a lot of valuable insights about what my sister's actually going through, interesting suggestions on things she might try, and am now starting to formulate the best to present all of this to her so that it can actually be of some use. Your discussion certainly speaks to that.

    Just thinking aloud, my sister is damn near allergic to excessive Te. It upsets her, and she basically shuts down. At the same time, my sister will use her feelings as a shield for stubbornness. I could present something to her in the gentlest way possible, but if it's not something she's interested in hearing, she'll rebuff it. I know enough to understand that I have to be able to reaffirm her and where she's coming from in order for her to hear anything I'm saying to her. If I do not, she will become defensive.

    I know this is not a problem that I can solve for her, so my aim is simply to help her think a little differently about her situation. I think Amargith is correct in that she's basically panicked at this point. Her fears may be somewhat overblown at this point, but theyre no less valid to her. They're feeding her insecurities which are in turn fueling the problem. So I wanna help her slow her roll, basically. I think that something as simple as being able to frame some of her issues for her will be a start. It will allow her to ground her fear in something workable. (I think this is the Fi-Te bridging ya'll have been discussing?)

    If she knows what her problem is, then the books and stuff that you mentioned, Amargith, will be more effective. It will give her something that will allow her to own the issue, work on it at her own pace, and begin applying her own creativity to resolve it. Then, she might start enacting some of the more practical suggestions that have been offered on her own, and if not I'll keep them in mind to share with her when she's ready for them.

    So, yeah, that's my plan on this. Obviously, the trickiest thing will be the first step--framing the issue without making her feel that an answer is being shoved down her throat. So if ya'll two wonderful, intelligent individuals (for whom I have a great deal of love and respect, ect) want to continue debating the fine points of successfully approaching an ENFP with difficult advice as an NTJ, then I'm all ears. Hell, I'd be obliged to you.

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  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I know this is not a problem that I can solve for her, so my aim is simply to help her think a little differently about her situation. I think Amargith is correct in that she's basically panicked at this point. Her fears may be somewhat overblown at this point, but theyre no less valid to her. They're feeding her insecurities which are in turn fueling the problem. So I wanna help her slow her roll, basically. I think that something as simple as being able to frame some of her issues for her will be a start. It will allow her to ground her fear in something workable. (I think this is the Fi-Te bridging ya'll have been discussing?)
    As someone mentioned earlier, Fi must engage before Te*, to help your sister clarify what she really wants and what is important to her. Otherwise, Te won't know what yardstick to use to evaluate what comes her way. This should be a much more comfortable exercise for her to do, and should lead naturally and eventually into ways of obtaining what she wants while acting according to her values.

    *On some level, this is true for NTJs as well.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    (I think this is the Fi-Te bridging ya'll have been discussing?)
    It's definitely on the right track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    So if ya'll two wonderful, intelligent individuals (for whom I have a great deal of love and respect, ect) want to continue debating the fine points of successfully approaching an ENFP with difficult advice as an NTJ, then I'm all ears.[/SPOILER]
    You know that thing they say about INTJs and how people think we're just a bunch of arrogant asses who think we know everything, but, in reality, when we don't know something, we'll tell you straight up? Well, prepare yourselves, people, cuz here it comes: if I had a proper knowledge of this issue, I don't know where I'd be, but I'd be a better person than I am today. I think @skylights addressed the topic in her post a bit (I've got a response to that post that's been sitting on the backburner for a few hours), and, obviously, @Amargith and I were touching on this issue before, and I'd be willing to do so again, but, at present moment, I can't quite think up a clean, clear, clever response that'll address the issue in a nice tidy manner. Yes, believe it or not, people, I'm saying I don't indeed know everything. Shocked? Well, that's your problem. Learn to read better. :P

  4. #54
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As someone mentioned earlier, Fi must engage before Te*, to help your sister clarify what she really wants and what is important to her. Otherwise, Te won't know what yardstick to use to evaluate what comes her way. This should be a much more comfortable exercise for her to do, and should lead naturally and eventually into ways of obtaining what she wants while acting according to her values.

    *On some level, this is true for NTJs as well.
    Knowing what she wants and whats important to her has never been an issue for my sister. Her problem is that where it's coming from may not be the best place. I dont want to further encourage her to define things in a way that walls her off from others. I think this issue of fear is where I want to apply myself. I feel that helping her to get through that she'll be able to figure out what she really wants on her own.

    Thats my thought at least. Does this make sense? Im worried I may have missed your point.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  5. #55
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Knowing what she wants and whats important to her has never been an issue for my sister. Her problem is that where it's coming from may not be the best place. I dont want to further encourage her to define things in a way that walls her off from others. I think this issue of fear is where I want to apply myself. I feel that helping her to get through that she'll be able to figure out what she really wants on her own.

    Thats my thought at least. Does this make sense? Im worried I may have missed your point.
    Possible, but more likely I just don't understand the situation well enough since I don't know your sister. I do know that sometimes people think they know what they want, but they don't really, because they have never stopped to consider their options and their fundmental values and priorities. Or, they don't realize that their values and priorities conflict with each other. They may be doing what they were brought up to do, or what they see people around them doing, regardless of whether it is right or best for them.

    One way to check this is to ask not just what do you want, but why do you want it. The answer will involve some even more basic value or goal, which in turn can be similarly questioned. The idea that your sister is too picky about dates/relationships suggests she might benefit from reassessing her goals and priorities. You know her best, though, so I still might be off the mark.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #56
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Your sister sounds like she might be normal. Well, I say normal...

    There are three early-20s ENFPs I can think of right now. One was sleeping with her teacher by 16. She's still waiting on his divorce. The second is much more widely travelled than the others, but she started out more adventurous. She's also aborted one man's child, been threatened by a second man's wife, and once even had to barricade herself in a hotel room to avoid some third man's frenzied assault, and these are only the stories I know of. She's 24. The third ENFP sounds more like your sister. She's 23 now and has only recently started dating outside her own mind. I have no idea what delayed her but compared to the others, she's chosen moderately well. Some boy her own age asked her out and that was that. She's aware of watching the boy rather than being "with" him, and worries (without much inspiration) that she is just playing at love. However, in the quite conventional sense, she has "blossomed". She dyed her hair, wears makeup, and has a new collection of conventionally mature styles of clothing.

    There are a million stories in the naked city, and these three are probably not actually representative, but by a got kissed before 20 metric, only the teacher's concubine makes the grade. If your sister reaches, say 23, and still isn't bored of her standards, maybe you just do have a nun on your hands.
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  7. #57
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @Wind-Up Rex

    Sooo should i post a step by step tutorial as to how it would work best if i were her or should i just keep kicking @Zarathustra in the shin?

    Or would you prefer a q and a with both of us? Not sure where to start here...
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #58
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    @Wind-Up Rex

    Sooo should i post a step by step tutorial as to how it would work best if i were her or should i just keep kicking @Zarathustra in the shin?

    Or would you prefer a q and a with both of us? Not sure where to start here...
    Well, since Zarathustra has acknowledged he has something to learn here as well, perhaps the step-by-step guide would be best. If, however, you discover that your explanation might be made more illuminating by sacrificing his shins to the Gods of Intertypal Peace and Harmony, then you have my blessing to do what you gotta do.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  9. #59
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    Fair warning: if the shin-kicking is too extreme, I may start a thread about the double standard of female-on-male physical abuse.

  10. #60
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Don't act like you don't like it, dude
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