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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And that is why I prefer books. No person to get pissy at me, nobody looking at the time, sighing, pummeling me for daring to take longer than they think it should take, nobody to appease or please. Just me, and my curiosity.
    And getting absolutely nothing done.


  2. #42
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And getting absolutely nothing done.

    True. In your eyes, I'm not. In mine, this is infinitely more productive. You can keep your Te-bootcamp
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    True. In your eyes, I'm not. In mine, this is infinitely more productive. You can keep your Te-bootcamp
    If you were looking at things objectively, you'd see that you're (largely) just rationalizing your inaction.

    That's not to say that there's not better or worse ways for you to figure things out, though.

    On that part, I agree with you: the approach must be tailored to you.

    (Patience with this project, though: don't expect it.)

    (It will be extremely frustrating to do this for us.)

    (Frankly, just thinking about it feels like hell.)

  4. #44
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    If you were looking at things objectively, you'd see that you're (largely) just rationalizing your inaction.

    That's not to say that there's not a better or worse way for you to figure things out, though.

    On that part, I agree with you.

    And that, right there, is why I unceremoniously tell my INTJ to bugger off when I'm working through something. With his help, it would be so much faster, that is, if he were to have the ability to actually understand what I need as a student. As it is, he has no respect for the fact that I am not in his league, and so, he gets booted off the island. What you perceive as inaction, is actually my preparation of the work ahead. The getting up the nerve, as well as the being informed enough to actually not run scared when I hit a snag, once I put it all into action. But I've yet to find an NTJ that can a) see that and b) respect that, let alone teach it. So yes, I'll stick with my books over NTJs, anyday. Loveable as they are. At least books get me *somewhere*, and I can usually (with a lot of lost time) figure out where to go from there.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    [
    Shake me all you want, but you won't get me to stop trembling in a corner by shaking me. Walking me through the steps however, and actually going through the boring basic stuff with me, and giving me the space to actually interpret it *my* way without rushing me.....that's how it works. I'll be your star pupil, if you'll just 'show me the work' and be a wee bit patient with me, as well as not expect me to value it or master it the same way you do. Go too fast, be impatient and show your disappointment and I freeze, shifting my focus from learning to pleasing you instead and appeasing you...hardly effective for learning the subject at hand.

    And that is why I prefer books. No person to get pissy at me, nobody looking at the time, sighing, pummeling me for daring to take longer than they think it should take, nobody to appease or please. Just me, and my curiosity.
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    Now this, this is true, especially the bolded.

    INFP: Can you say it again?
    ESTJ: *yells* No, I will not say it again. What is wrong with you??

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  6. #46
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    1. There is nothing wrong with her. She needs to accept that. Not having a relationship by 20 really isn't as unique as people think. Making a big deal about it is like trying to talk a girl into orgasming. It just makes them overthink everything.

    2. She needs to make friends with guys. I was freaked out by guys until I made a best friend in high school who was male. He was a local INTJ I met online. Nothing ever happened between us but I got over the "fear of guys"

    3. I used to have trouble making friends because I had too high of expectations. I see the negative in people so I avoided a lot of people as friend material. She needs to move past that and realize that she has flaws and so do other people (including males.) I still have to remind myself that people are allowed to be "unperfect" and still be my friends.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And that, right there, is why I unceremoniously tell my INTJ to bugger off when I'm working through something. With his help, it would be so much faster, that is, if he were to have the ability to actually understand what I need as a student. As it is, he has no respect for the fact that I am not in his league, and so, he gets booted off the island. What you perceive as inaction, is actually my preparation of the work ahead. The getting up the nerve, as well as the being informed enough to actually not run scared when I hit a snag, once I put it all into action. But I've yet to find an NTJ that can a) see that and b) respect that, let alone teach it. So yes, I'll stick with my books over NTJs, anyday. Loveable as they are. At least books get me *somewhere*, and I can usually (with a lot of lost time) figure out where to go from there.


    Honestly, I think that's the best way.

    It is extremely frustrating to try and teach people something that seems so obvious.

    When they don't get it after you explain it, it feels like your entire life force just runs into a wall and is stuck.

    I've worked as a tutor, and I used to help my NF friends with math back in school, so I've developed a sort of patience for doing it, but, frankly, my natural energy feels so stifled by the block that it *really* takes a lot out of me to do it, and, frankly, I think there are more productive ways to live life for all parties involved than to subject themselves to this near-certain calamity.

    I don't think this is really on-topic, though, so we should probably leave this discussion for elsewhere.

  8. #48
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post


    Honestly, I think that's the best way.

    It is extremely frustrating to try and teach people something that seems so obvious.

    When they don't get it after you explain it, it feels like your entire life force just runs into a wall and is stuck.

    I've worked as a tutor, and I used to help my NF friends with math back in school, so I've developed a sort of patience for doing it, but, frankly, my natural energy feels so stifled by the block that it *really* takes a lot out of me to do it, and, frankly, I think there's more productive ways to live life for all parties involved than to subject themselves to this almost certain calamity.

    I don't think this is really on-topic, though, so we should probably leave this discussion for elsewhere.

    I was about to suggest the same thing, though I'm not sure if it will help @Wind-Up Rex perhaps prepare herself for doing the big sister thing and helping her sister face reality

    Last addition: it is frustrating on my end as well, though. I *know* that i would be a lot less confused if he could just help me out, but...experience has taught me otherwise. I'm already struggling with keeping my baby Si from completely going crazy on me, while learning somethign that scares the living daylights out of me, I cannot be bothered to be understanding of his impatience at the same time as well. Something's got to give. And neither one is an option, if you want your relationship to survive, so that's why booting him off the island somehow is the sound thing to do to save our relationship. He from his end curbs his 'you should do it this way' when he sees me being clueless and fumbling about and tries very hard not to laugh at me (or he gets a pan thrown at his head). Meanwhile he find something else to distract him with, or he at least leaves the room before he goes banging his head against the wall.

    Either way, it works

    Alright, officially time to..

    /end rant.
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  9. #49
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    tl;dr

    I advocate:

    1. Getting her to join some group activities with guys, per @Coriolis
    2. Gently talking to her about her insecurities, and why they exist (ENFP should love this)
    3. Gently talking to her about her too-high standards, and drafting a list of "reasonable" standards

    I think that having you there to talk to is great, as well. I wish I'd had a sister to bounce ideas and thoughts and fears off of.

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I feel this is what it's going to take for her. Some guy whose interested enough and confident enough to see through her bitch act, and really take her on. The age + experience thing is another great point. She's just so innocent, you know? Like she literally knows nothing, and I'm terrified at the idea of something going wrong for her. And it definitely does occur to me that some people assume the worst about her behavior simply because she's old enough that she should know how to reciprocate on some level, and the fact that she doesn't makes her come off as even more of a frigid bitch.
    Well, and honestly, probably something will go wrong for her. I've made some HUGE beginner's mistakes with my boyfriend and I know I've hurt him more than is fair (thank goodness he has very clean, clear boundaries, which prevent him from getting mired in hurt the way I would). I think the most important thing for her now is to move forward but take her time, and aim for a good first relationship.

    The ENFP tendency is to want every relationship to be the one-and-only, be-all-end-all, but I think a more realistic goal (perhaps an example of gentle, constructive Te pruning?) would be to try to find a sincere, upright guy who will treat her well and give her a good taste of a realistic relationship, even if it doesn't work out forever. I think part of what she will need to accept, if she hasn't already, is that you can still have a good, meaningful first relationship without it being your lifelong relationship. There is something magical about your first relationship, after all. They will always be the first, even if not the last. And the first is all about learning - I think it's really not all that important to have the "perfect" guy for your first relationship. Most important would be to have someone willing to help you grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    She definitely wants a Feeler. [...] He also has to be extremely attractive. [...] He'll also have to be pretty fucking smart, or he's not gonna make the cut either.
    !

    Well of COURSE the NFP wants it ALL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Does she have many opportunities to interact with guys relatively close in age? If not, it might help to find some. Not dating or bar situations, but more like hobbies, clubs, community/volunteer groups, etc. where she can spend time with guys in no-pressure situations where dating is not even on the radar. This might help her relax around guys more, get to know a few just as friends, and see where things lead.
    Yes! I strongly second this!

    I started making good guy friends at work after college, very much in contrast to how I'd always surrounded myself with girls or the occasional not-so-masculine guy. I think that really opened me up to how to hang out with male peers. I think with the sx 6 drive - the "strength and beauty" thing - you're pretty much always opposed to guys. I always tended to see them as academic competition, and often just mean, brute force that needed to be overcome - especially hyper-masculine guys. Hanging out with guys at work really taught me what real men are like, instead of just my competitive bully archetypes. They're cool - sometimes easier to hang out with than girls! And that opened me up more to being willing to go get a couple drinks with my now-boyfriend, because he was fun to talk to. He wasn't threatening (until he made it clear that he was interested in me as more than a friend, lol).

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't know how to create a connection because usually connections find their way into my life on their own. Making one is a process I haven't really trained on. [...] I think it is important to know the main ideas she wants out of a relationship, but she may not even realize she is destroying potential relationships based on nothing but assumptions. I realized I was being very cruel that way.. I wouldn't want someone to assume things about me without really getting to know me. [...] You have to understand what people need, and you have to know what you need so you can communicate it. Men aren't psychics, or miracle-workers.
    Yes, this, absolutely. I'm still working on understanding what I need in a relationship, and working on articulating this. It's very challenging to the old forest of Fi, with its mossy roots dug so deep but so hard to see and trace. And it's hard to direct that F outward, to the other person, when the concept "relationship" conjures so very many NeFi linkages (and all in her head, since she's never had any real experience!) Sometimes it's hard not to objectify relationship potentials, as cruel as that sounds. It's easy to accidentally minimize them into a role, and Te-reject them because they do not seem to perfectly fit that role you have created. But that's the thing about that role - is it what you actually need? Or is it what you think you need? The pretty picture NeFi weaves is not always matched by truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    But most men aren't fans of this whole "lets see how many flaming hoops I can make a man jump through to get my approval."
    Truth.

    Though, it's in part self-protection (and by extension, protection of potential mates). 6s protect themselves via avoidance (phobia) or pre-empting (counterphobia). I don't think it's a conscious measure - more like what Zarathustra said about being a front for insecurity, combined with the inevitable NF idealism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Give her the proper time it takes to develop Fi(by feeding it with Ne) and *know* what it wants, or I guarantee you, disaster will ensue. [...]

    Force Te on an NeFi that isn't ready, that hasn't had the time to process or do its homework, and you will wreak a lot of emotional damage, on all parties involved. Her Si will be so traumatized, she'll never wanna repeat the experiment ever again. [...]

    Once again, give her NeFi time to catch up and prod Fi to get to work already and demand from Ne that it feed it real information instead of 'what if' scenarios. Right now she's not NeFi-ing, she's NeSi-ing (what if, omg, it'll be horrendous). Si is retaining all the scenarios Ne feeds it that are a disaster. And Fi is used as a barrier to keep that from happening as it's fueled by both her Si nightmares of reality and the idealistic dreams she's gathered from tv, books and her own aspirations. If anything needs to be pushed, it's Fi. Her Fi needs to learn to merge reality with her dreams in a for her acceptable way, and that takes time. As for Te, tell that thing to sit on its ass, behave and wait its turn, for realz. If she's smart, it'll get its marching orders when Fi is good and ready and not a moment sooner.
    I agree... I do think Te needs to be used to trim the NeFi idealizations and lower her entry threshold, but gently. Fi is currently being used as a blunt defense mechanism, and Fi and Te together are creating a bizarre set of high Fi standards versus grim, quickly-dismissing view of reality. Te actually needs to be let up in the sense that she is doing too much external pruning. Te in ENFPs is the "let's throw EVERYTHING OUT" function, to save us from the Ne overgrowth - that's not what needs to happen here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    She needs to realize that when she starts acting like a fool when she's around a guy that she's attracted to, well, that's what every guy is going through when they try to ask her out. So who the hell is she to judge them for their potentially botched approaches that don't meet her exacting standards? I mean, she finds herself a catch, but she's not exactly smooth in this regard, right? Well, the single most important rule of morality is reciprocity: if she turns into a bumbling idiot when around someone she's attracted to, then she needs to realize she has no right to judge others for being the same way. We all should already realize this, but perhaps she needs to have it very flatly laid out to her. That can serve as an opening to the next step.
    What you're saying is a fair point, but I'm not sure it would get across to her in the way you're intending it to get across. The argument is a little flawed in that she's not the one doing the asking out - the men who come after her are openly acting, so she has a right to judge. Does that make sense? She's not voluntarily subjecting herself to judgment, probably because she knows she's not very good at it. She can judge because they're initiating. Because she's not acting, she's morally exempt from judgment. It's not really a bidirectional thing.

    What @Amargith has said about treading carefully with harsh rationality is particularly important in this sense because, being reactive, a blunt "attack" could send her flying either far, far away from relationships - which would be eminently counterproductive - or so geared up to go that she will explode not only at Rex (who will be fine by virtue of being ENTJ, but would probably prefer not to have to deal with that), but possibly also voraciously hunt down some poor innocent guy and tear him to shreds - both results leaving her in a worse-off place than she was before.

    Next, she needs to realize that a big part of her "exacting standards" and what not is a front to cover up her own insecurity. It's fine to have high standards, but it's not okay to use high standards as an excuse for inaction or to cover up one's own insecurities.
    This is very true, and I wonder how much of this she's aware of already. I was painfully aware that my constant rejection of relationships and ridiculously high standards (ie, you shall not pass) were to protect me from being humiliated (and to protect a guy from having a negative experience, too). It's interesting, though, that she does explicitly want a relationship - I did too, but not in the here and now. I wanted my fairytale in the indefinite future, after I got myself looking like a supermodel and running marathons and working at the UN and all that jazz.

    Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to help her outline some reasonable standards for a guy - no hard drugs, good sense of morality, steady job, respectful, etc - and maybe that will help her open her eyes to grasp that there can be excitement in discovering what a guy does that's totally different - better! - from what you expected.

  10. #50
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    3. I used to have trouble making friends because I had too high of expectations. I see the negative in people so I avoided a lot of people as friend material. She needs to move past that and realize that she has flaws and so do other people (including males.) I still have to remind myself that people are allowed to be "unperfect" and still be my friends.
    That's quite important.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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