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  1. #31
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    It seems like one take-away is that this is fairly common @Wind-Up Rex, and that it's likely your sis will come around with time.

    So really, instead of trying to rush or force the issue, I'd just try and feed her as much valuable information as I could until time does it's thing. Not lecture her, mind you, but simply have 2 way conversations where you try and slip in some of the joys and dangers of dating. In particular, I'd try and find a way to have a conversation about what she thinks makes a man a good dad, and how those traits might express themselves in a early to mid 20s single, childless male. Not all of them are sexual turn-ons, so it'll be good to give her time to process that into her Fi model so she's equipped to make better decisions later.

    Something else - is she in college? Perhaps part of the problem is that she's disgusted by the hook-up scene, and so rebels into her fantasy.

  2. #32
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    I haven't clarified my thoughts enough to post more substantively on the subject yet...

    But most men aren't fans of this whole "lets see how many flaming hoops I can make a man jump through to get my approval."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    *warning, function drivel ahead*
    Drivel for sure...



    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    This might be true for career stuff (and even then!), but it's bound to get her heart broken (not to mention potentially the poor guys she does this with) if she 'forces' love with Te.
    This is not what I suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And I may implore Tjs to listen, but I never expect them to do it *my* way. They work differently and I expect no less than to have them have Fi as a voice in the back of their heads while having NiTe 'drive' as such. You should give FP's the same courtesy.
    Apparently, you still have a highly reactionary negative response to Te, cuz that's what I *am* recommending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You see this already with NFPs who 'jump' in for whatever reason and suck at wielding the Te hammer...
    I'm not imploring her to go around "Te bitch-slapping" (as much as I hate that term) people.

    I'm saying she needs to hear (and eventually be able to tell herself) an objective Te message about how her current Fi values ain't cuttin it, cuz they ain't the right ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Once again, give her NeFi time to catch up and prod Fi to get to work already and demand from Ne that it feed it real information instead of 'what if' scenarios.
    How do you think it's supposed to determine what is real information and what is not?

    Of all the functions ENFPs have regular access to, Te is the one that does that job.

    Ne comes up with what-if scenarios -- that's what it does.

    Te, properly used, is what prunes those many possibilities down to what's actually objectively real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    If anything needs to be pushed, it's Fi. Her Fi needs to learn to merge reality with her dreams in a for her acceptable way, and that takes time. As for Te, tell that thing to sit on its ass, behave and wait its turn, for realz. If she's smart, it'll get its marching orders when Fi is good and ready and not a moment sooner.
    You're all mixed up here.

    You implore the right thing (a dose of reality), but then fail to see what function does that for an ENFP.

    @bolded: that merging of reality, that is Te coming in and regulating her subjective opinions (Fi) with a dose of objective truth (Te).

  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    The result will be the reality check, which is why Te is last in order. But before you can get there, Fi needs to actually figure out what it wants. Perhaps you're right...perhaps Te can play an advisory role as to what is to be expected from reality, but I still feel that pushing her to actually *do* something with Te is detrimental. Let her learn, ready, mull things over, play about with concepts and see if she can use Fi (and perhaps Te, as long as it behaves), to deepen her understanding of what it is she truly wants out of life. And only then is it Te's turn to actually figure out how to accomplish that. Thinkin about that before you've done the evaluation process with Fi can be incredibly scary and make you wanna turn around and run however, speaking from personal experience..

    As for your Te message...forcing it down the throat of someone who's scared shitless (terrified Si), and has only her Fi to defend her, is about as cruel as you can get. Im not saying that that's what you're suggesting, but it is what I'm warning against, as I know that NTJs in their desire to help you out and give you that loving kick in the tuckus sometimes go that route and it does more damage than you know. What I am suggesting is to feed her Te-information through her Ne for her Fi to contemplate without pressure (which is why i suggested those books, they're based on scientific and empirical data). Granted, I'll admit that I didn't realize that that info could be construed as Te (Te to me is the thing that screams at me to do something already and stop being such a whimp...aka an impatient bully. Not my fondest experience).
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina View Post
    ETA: i didn't have low self-esteem, i simply had no self-esteem specific to relationships. thus far, i had found deep satisfaction from exploring intellectual pursuits with my INTJ best friend (in many ways, that relationship probably carved the important neural pathways that would later dictate what i wanted in relationships).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Perhaps you're right...perhaps Te can play an advisory role as to what is to be expected from reality, but I still feel that pushing her to actually *do* something with Te is detrimental.
    I never said anything about Te pushing her to do something.

    That's your input that, for some reason *nudge nudge*, you read into my words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Let her learn, ready, mull things over, play about with concepts and see if she can use Fi (and perhaps Te, as long as it behaves), to deepen her understanding of what it is she truly wants out of life. And only then is it Te's turn to actually figure out how to accomplish that. Thinkin about that before you've done the evaluation process with Fi can be incredibly scary and make you wanna turn around and run however, speaking from personal experience..
    As someone who has been "critiqued" for suggesting a relationship between Te and the slave-driving action, I feel the need to let you know that you have far too strong a paradigm of thinking that's what Te is all about.

    Te is also about looking at the objective facts and taking a very sober view of reality.

    This often then gets followed up by the slave-driving action, but all I suggested was the first part.

    Believe it or not, Fi endlessly mulling stuff over doesn't necessarily lead to the right conclusion.

    As much as you may value your Fi, it still needs to be counterbalanced by other functions.

    Just like Te needs to be counterbalanced by Fi, Fi needs to be counterbalanced by Te.

    All functions become unhealthy if not counterbalanced by their opposite function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Granted, I'll admit that I didn't realize that that info could be construed as Te (Te to me is the thing that screams at me to do something already and stop being such a whimp...aka an impatient bully. Not my fondest experience).
    Yes, well, while Te can obviously be that slave-driver, I would suggest that this also has a lot to do with what I would call your own problematic relationship with Te.

    Turn the tables and have an NTJ saying analogous kind of stuff about Fi, and you certainly would think they have it all wrong.

    There's a reason for that. And it's not that you're wrong when you're thinking about Fi and NTJs.

  7. #37
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I have no qualms admitting my shady relationship with Te, nor my lack of understanding. I do marvel at it in others, but resent it in myself. Im not sure how other NFPs relate to this, but Te to me often feels like the pressure to perform already, do something efficient and useful (society doesn't help). And we are talking about a young ENFP here. While the realistic touch of Te is definitely what she needs, as it can help her get unstuck with that NeSi- Fi??? loop, you also have to keep in mind that since we don't use it with the same mastery as you guys, its use and reliability are limited at best. Hence I usually use outside Te sources to get myself unstuck. I just don't trust my own...rational judgement. For NTJs this can seem amusing (mine certainly seems to think so), coz I do way more work than he'd ever do..but then he is way more capable than me to use a nugget of info to its full advantage by inferring the rest. If I do that, mine just screams that I'm useless for not getting this shit and worse, I'm using it to stall. If she's anywhere like that, forcing her to rely on that...is not a good plan. Relying on big ENTJ sis for a reality check (if the trust is there, which I don't doubt) however...might work

    That is..if she's willing and open to a reality check and if you give her the space to play with it. Otherwise you'll just get doorslammed and she'll retreat back in her fantasy cocoon.

    Make sense?

    Ps: as for reading into your words..I didn't, I merely 'forgot' about that side of Te. I responded that way to the way I experience Te myself, not to you, my dear. And yes, I would reply in equal fierceness if you treated Fi this way

    To sum up our little argument: I don't necessarily disagree with your message,I am just warning against 'specialists syndrome'. I'm afraid that what you're suggesting might go over her head and scare her shitless instead of draw her out of her shell and give her time to absorb the info you're wanting to provide.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Second, I don't feel that telling her that boys are just as scared as you are, so cut them some slack, or calling her out for fronting for her insecurity are really effective ways of addressing the underlying insecurity issues. Then again, I don't really know. She's so sensitive that we really don't have "Come to Jesus" chats with her, and especially not with a subject like this. I dunno. I just have the distinct feeling that she would double down rather than seeing that all she was being told was, "Hey, get over yourself and get into the game." Nothing is just that simple for her. .
    Insecurity stems from a lack of proper/incomplete perspective (unless it is based on a solid grasp of reality and a genuine threat – but in this case, you’ve indicated she’s bright, beautiful, etc. etc.). It is often hyper-focusing in its mechanism. What specifically is she insecure about?

    The antidote for lack of perspective is increased perspective. She needs to pan out the lens. Empathy is a great component to a more complete perspective. Seeing these guys as worthwhile human beings in their own right, rather than a prospective source of good feelings/there to impress her would be a good thing.

    You can’t control her response, but if gently delivered, truth, i.e. objective reality and its governing principles, will usually do its own work over time sooner or later. You’re just trying to give her the shortcut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Relying on big ENTJ sis for a reality check (if the trust is there, which I don't doubt) however...might work
    That's exactly what I was suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    To sum up our little argument: I don't necessarily disagree with your message,I am just warning against 'specialists syndrome'. I'm afraid that what you're suggesting might go over her head and scare her shitless instead of draw her out of her shell and give her time to absorb the info you're wanting to provide.
    And I don't disagree with this; it is tough from the Te users' point of view. You guys really don't seem to listen to the objective Te message, so then it becomes like "shaken baby syndrome". We try to tell you, you don't listen. We try to tell you again, you still don't listen. We try to tell you a third time, you still don't listen, so now we're frustrated and start shaking the baby.

    The sad thing is, and, honestly, I've had enough personal experience with this and heard it from enough other ENFPs: you guys really need that dose of reality, and, whether or not you listen to us, it's gunna come and hit you smack in the face one day.

    Some ENFPs are probably better at it than others, just as some NTJs are better with their Fi, but it just hurts everyone around you when you don't wise up and listen to the objective message everybody is trying to give you.

    *cue the NFP's (e4?) wallowing in guilt for hurting her loved ones, but still not doing what is necessary to fix things*

  10. #40
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @Zarathustra I just showed this to my INTJ and his instant reply was: ' Just do it!' and my instant response was:' NOooooooo'

    Telling me to 'just do it' just adds pressure and doesn't help me one bit. You (= general ntj) basically told me to grow up and get over myself, but you didn't bother to tell me what I needed to hear, coz it's so *bloody* obvious to you guys. For instance, I'm currently working on a project that scares the living daylights out of me, and he just tells me to 'go out and do it'. What I needed from him wasn't to hear that, I need him to help me figure out what the next step is, what the follow up step is, what to look out for and how to monitor results. Yes, this is mindbogglingly easy for you guys and it takes forever but it isn't clear to me and it's what causes me to look like I'm dawdling..especially if you won't even bother to help me out and just pressure me.

    Shake me all you want, but you won't get me to stop trembling in a corner by shaking me. Walking me through the steps however, and actually going through the boring basic stuff with me, and giving me the space to actually interpret it *my* way without rushing me.....that's how it works. I'll be your star pupil, if you'll just 'show me the work' and be a wee bit patient with me, as well as not expect me to value it or master it the same way you do. Go too fast, be impatient and show your disappointment and I freeze, shifting my focus from learning to pleasing you instead and appeasing you...hardly effective for learning the subject at hand.

    And that is why I prefer books. No person to get pissy at me, nobody looking at the time, sighing, pummeling me for daring to take longer than they think it should take, nobody to appease or please. Just me, and my curiosity.
    Last edited by Amargith; 07-06-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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