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Thread: Ni in xNFJs? =\

  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So it's interesting how there's different language the INFJs and the INTJs appear to use for that subjectivity. I noted the use of the word "honest" above, and I was aware of it as (or at least perceived it as being used as) an evaluation of a perception, and I doubted I would ever call a perception honest, so I thought HAHA, INTROVERTED THINKING! And I've wondered for a long time what difference the presence of that makes.
    I can’t speak for @Ribonuke, but I’m going to guess s/he didn’t mean [subtext:] “I’m just being OMG1HONEST11PURETRUTH!!” so much as a breezy “I’m just being honest about stuff that’s occurring to me and others think it’s insightful (but I’m not *trying* to be insightful, it’s just the stuff that occurs to me).” That’s how I read it at first, anyway- how I interpreted “blatantly honest” (as offensive to Fi sensibilities as that may be). [So…..HAHA, INTROVERTED FEELING? And yeah, it's interesting how the language does reflect the unconscious priorities.]

    And I think ideally it’s progressive, but sometimes people get stuck. [That’s when the real magic of Ni happens, and the victims left in its wake sometimes flock to online INFJ doorslam threads to perpetuate the magic ripples with others. A good time is had by all.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I can’t speak for @Ribonuke, but I’m going to guess s/he didn’t mean [subtext:] “I’m just being OMG1HONEST11PURETRUTH!!” so much as a breezy “I’m just being honest about stuff that’s occurring to me and others think it’s insightful (but I’m not *trying* to be insightful, it’s just the stuff that occurs to me).”
    I'm trying to think of the INTJ correlate. Maybe there isn't one. Machines and impersonal organisational structures don't often come back with a surprised, wow, I didn't know you knew that about me.

    And I think ideally it’s progressive, but sometimes people get stuck. [That’s when the real magic of Ni happens, and the victims left in its wake sometimes flock to online INFJ doorslam threads to perpetuate the magic ripples with others. A good time is had by all.]
    LOL. Yes.

    Actually, I think it may be axiomatic that people get stuck. It's more or less guaranteed that judgment lags behind perception AND THAT FROM THE BEGINNING JUDGMENT IS CORRUPT! How can it not be? It starts forming when you're an infant, how can it not have all sorts of weird, unexamined components that even can't be examined because they're so fundamental to whatever came later.

    Pffft, I seem to have ended up, as always, at some claim that the nature of the dominant consciousness is substantially determined by that which remains unconscious.

    That's a bit weird, though. It takes dominant functioning for granted.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ribonuke's Avatar
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    xD oops, guys, I meant "obvious", not "honest", that was a typo.

    *HIDES*

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm trying to think of the INTJ correlate. Maybe there isn't one. Machines and impersonal organisational structures don't often come back with a surprised, wow, I didn't know you knew that about me.

    You know, honestly*, I’ve thought before that the word “objective” is a good example of that correlate. You guys (Te’ers) throw that word around like it’s an Se example* or something. You all are pretty cavalier with it, and it took me awhile to realize you don’t mean “ZOMG11OBJECTIVE1PURETRUTH11!!” every time you use it. [Both the way we use language and the way we ‘hear’ it reflects the unconscious priorities. And yeah, it is kinda troubling how, no matter how hard we try, it seems like making those priorities totally conscious is like living on a beach and making sure no sand gets into the house…..it’s always already just a matter of being as vigilant as possible with it, but hoping for that moment where we’re completely free of it is kinda futile.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ribonuke View Post
    xD oops, guys, I meant "obvious", not "honest", that was a typo.

    *HIDES*
    Yeah, that’s kinda how I automatically read it.




    *
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's more or less guaranteed that judgment lags behind perception AND THAT FROM THE BEGINNING JUDGMENT IS CORRUPT! How can it not be? It starts forming when you're an infant, how can it not have all sorts of weird, unexamined components that even can't be examined because they're so fundamental to whatever came later.

    Pffft, I seem to have ended up, as always, at some claim that the nature of the dominant consciousness is substantially determined by that which remains unconscious.

    That's a bit weird, though. It takes dominant functioning for granted.
    Actually what's to say judgment lags behind perception? The way the human body is structured, the way the brain is structured, it may well be that we have certain built-in judgment structures from day 0. Even infants have to prioritize. And perception can be corrupt, too. Lord knows N perception takes in all sorts of things that are vastly different from S perception, and Ni perception different from Ne perception. Our personal quirks and differences completely corrupt any semblance of "reality", if there is even a "reality" to begin with. The world could possibly be far more vast and dazzling than we'll ever be able to see, much less make decisions about. And since your dom is what's encouraging your other functions to differentiate, it's screwing them over as much as your subconscious is screwing your dom over.

    So basically everyone is fucked.



    I was really hoping I'd come to a more inspiring and thread-pertinent conclusion than that.

  6. #16
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    This analogy was used by The Great One in this thread here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...6398&p=1882816
    I totally rock

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I totally rock
    You do. I thought it was pretty awesome.

  8. #18
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    You do. I thought it was pretty awesome.
    I'm glad to know that others know that I rock as well.

  9. #19
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    For my thoughts on Ni, I'll copy and paste myself from another thread (I tried to edit it to make sense by itself, but I apologize if I missed something that related to a previous post in the other thread):

    Ni is pretty future-focused. It's like . . . over the course of a lifetime, someone using Ni takes in all the information that they've ever received or encountered through study or through living life (Se data) and then tries to make universal principles out of it. Then they use these principles when they encounter what's happening now to try to figure out what will most likely happen in the future, and using what's happening now to add to their universal principles.

    For an example of Ni principles, take the song "Affirmation" by Savage Garden (one of my favorite bands), lyrics written by Darren Hayes (who I believe to be ENFJ). One line says "I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you." The principle: things that are bad for you generally seem more fun/desirable because of the person believing they're bad for them. So if someone using Ni believes this principle to be true, then when they're with someone else who's trying to decide between two things that are otherwise equal but one they believe is healthy and the other less than healthy (doesn't have to be food-related at all), the Ni-user will probably conclude that this other person will be naturally drawn to what they believe is unhealthy (although whether the person actually chooses this unhealthy thing is far more complicated).

    Or, for instance, if I'm with a good friend who I've known for years, I've accumulated information over the years about what things they're likely to do when and under what circumstances. So when certain circumstances come up, it's almost an unconscious process that I will get hunches saying "This person is likely to do ____ because of being in these circumstances." But the hunch is based on info of what this person has done over the years; it's not out of nowhere.

    But there are two caveats: there's not always a hunch. There isn't always enough accumulated "Se data" or principles built up for every situation, and sometimes I get no hunch at all even if I really, really want one! The other caveat is that sometimes I'll see a couple likely scenarios that will happen because of a couple pieces of information that I don't have. Sometimes I'll think things like: "If this person is doing this for reason X, then they will mostly likely do action A. But if they're actually doing it for reason Y, then they will most likely do action B." And the disparity in my thinking is because of not having the information of whether they're doing it for reason X or Y. But it's not a million and one possibilities.

    I get an Ni hunch, then I will analyze it further in my own head, mostly trying to make it more clear to myself. Sometimes it will be a really vague notion, and I'll need to wait for it to become more clear. Or sometimes it's a clear notion, but the reasoning behind it is not so clear (not at all that it's not there or not valid, it's just that it's less in focus), and so I'll work on trying to make the reasoning more clear (using Ti) so that I can explain it to others if asked.

    I want to add too that Ni isn't all about finding "one possibility." Since it's a perceiving function, it's always working to refine itself. And looking at multiple perspectives is also a big part of what Ni is. It's like looking at something through different lenses and believing that all of these lenses are valid and needed in order to see the complete picture. For instance, if you're looking at a novel, you might examine it through the perspective of characters, and then through setting, and then through theme, etc. Or if you're an English major, it might be through gender theory, New Criticism, deconstruction of binaries, etc. Someone using Ni would believe that all of these perspectives (and many others) are needed to fully understand the novel (the object) completely, and they could shift talking from one perspective to another perspective and still feel like they're still talking about the same whole object, even if one perspective seems to contradict the other. But this is different than multiple possibilities.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  10. #20
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Ni is the reason I suck at telling people about movies I saw or why I have difficulty sticking to an outline on an essay. Every detail is relevant and it's hard to hit the high points because everything is interconnected. I never realized that until a little while ago.
    Indeed. And add Ti into the mix, and every detail is even more relevant. That's why I had to train myself to be really Te when writing an essay (not to mention this is the way that English teachers want essays to be formatted).
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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