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  1. #31
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    I love being an NF, but for the purposes of long-term (or even short-term) necessary communication and interaction, give me a room of NTs over a room of NFs any day.

    Quote Originally Posted by air View Post
    I know it is silly, but I find it important to go through every single feeling/issue (how I upsetted the person, why did it upset them, do they understand what I mean now, etc etc) to get through the situation, be it a disagreement or whatever. Often, even though I feel I may be in the 'right', I find it so hard to cope with the situation and the thoughts of upsetting someone that I will just break down in a big, teary and sincere apology. When it is a recurring issue, I really want to analyze it with the person to get to the very root of the issue. A big discussion with a productive outcome is what I have in mind in this case. "It's a issue, it's getting in between our relationship, I love you and I want to have a healthy relationship with you" <------ that's how I think.
    Yeah I drive the people closest to me a bit nuts with this. I’m hyper paranoid about upsetting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Xis, the actual goal is to see the same situation literally through someone elses eyes, and to then backtrack that to what causes that difference in perception within that person (be it background, life experiences, gender roles, age, different interests). Once you understand where it comes from, it is possible and quite powerful to hold those different views within one mind and repeat that experience (if you have all the data, that is), for the next situation, even if that person isn't present. It enriches your own point of view and allows you to hold two (or more) opposing perceptions, and often judgements of the same situation within your mind without going insane as it all makes perfect sense. The frustration of it not making sense before also causes this desperate need to find this understanding. You know you're just missing info. It's quite powerful..and addictive

    Enjoy the nut house

  2. #32
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I harbor no personal feelings of moral superiority in terms of personality, short perhaps of unconscious biases that I am trying to overcome, as I would hope should be clear from my posts.
    I'm quite sure you don't have personal feelings of moral superiority. As a matter of fact, I think most NF's don't. It sort of goes with the manipulation that some do under the guise of - I'm trying to help you or I'm trying to do it for your own good. That manipulation never comes from a negative place either.

    I'm not sure I understand why you have read "sanctimonious" into this statement, because it's not something I intended. What made you feel like that? From @Coriolis' post I get the sense that I seemed to imply that the NF way of being was the best/only/ideal way, but I only meant to refer to how satisfying that process is for NFs. For what it's worth, I think a world entirely populated by NFs would be miserable, not to mention that it would probably go to hell in a matter of years. Maybe that wasn't clear?
    I do think there is some great hope in NF's that the people around them will see the benefits. Unconscious or conscious, I do think that urge is there, no matter how benevolent.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #33
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Our perceptions are incapable of percieving what is actual. (Or, we are incapable of knowing if our perceptions percieve what is actual).

    From that point, it is better to just accept this and move on to more pressing matters. Endlessly trying to resolve that difference (especially with others) is futile. With other people involved, the best you could hope for is to achieve a consensus of what is being percieved...which is all nice and dandy, but it leads nowhere.
    "More pressing matters" is likely the part of your argument we disagree about. In my mind, since we can't be sure our perceptions accurately portray reality, we should stop fretting and just live in the subjective first-person-narrative we can't escape anyway. An enormously important part of that narrative is emotion -- to ignore that is to ignore the constraints of perception, not the other way around.

    If perception is subjective, the only fixed metric we can have for whether an action is "worth it" is whether or not it increases our net happiness. Since you have the option do things about certain feelings, you may as well do a cost benefit analysis of those options...otherwise, how are you being rational?

    Edit: in response to the "it leads nowhere" point, @Nocapszy said something funny to me a few years ago, it was something like, "all humans ever do is move some stuff around". It all leads nowhere.

    From the nfs all I was hearing was "this is what I percieved and this is how it affected my self" and "that's funny, this is how it affected my self. Why the difference?" Then endless debates about whose self was affected "better" or "more accurately". The goal seemed to be about resolving the two differing selves in order to participate in a nice make up session at the end of it all. But the actuality of it all was completely lost in the discussion.
    Certainly, an impersonal way of looking at things is useful much of the time, but it's just one narrative that is limited in utility. Sometimes you can increase happiness with a lower cost by switching narratives to the experiential. There's also something to be said for the possible gain in net happiness due to the connectedness feeling you get from expressing your emotions.

    Granted, the actuality will always be lost, but it should always remain central.
    But... you yourself already said that actuality is something humans do not have direct access to through perception. I don't see why you're using actuality as a metric in this way when you dismissed it outright above.

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Ah yes, you Js do have trouble with adaptation
    Not at all. We just call it contingency planning.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This was only a joke on my part - I am in a teasing mood today - and I harbor no personal feelings of moral superiority in terms of personality, short perhaps of unconscious biases that I am trying to overcome, as I would hope should be clear from my posts. I'm not sure I understand why you have read "sanctimonious" into this statement, because it's not something I intended. What made you feel like that? From @Coriolis' post I get the sense that I seemed to imply that the NF way of being was the best/only/ideal way, but I only meant to refer to how satisfying that process is for NFs. For what it's worth, I think a world entirely populated by NFs would be miserable, not to mention that it would probably go to hell in a matter of years. Maybe that wasn't clear?
    I did not interpret your post as implying NF connecting was best/only/ideal. My reply was intentionally a bit heavy-handed. I'm not sure emotionally connecting would be unsatisfying for an NT, and most of us probably could use more of it than we get. There seems to be a catch-22 about it, though. We're not good at it, so attempts often lead to frustration and misunderstanding, so we become even more hesitant to try, so we never improve.

    So, in trying to connect with an NF, is it better to try connecting emotionally, as they prefer; or to encourage them to try connecting more intellectually as we prefer; or something else? It's a bit like trying to communicate with someone who speaks another language. When doing that, it works well for each of us to speak our own language, in which we are most fluent, while trying to listen and comprehend the other language. Learning experiences, however, are a different story.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I'm quite sure you don't have personal feelings of moral superiority. As a matter of fact, I think most NF's don't. It sort of goes with the manipulation that some do under the guise of - I'm trying to help you or I'm trying to do it for your own good. That manipulation never comes from a negative place either.
    Ah, yeah, I know what you mean. I picked up on this with my ENFJ best friend. She would try to help people "for their own good" but it seemed to me like sometimes it was really about meeting her own internal idea of what they should be.

    I do think there is some great hope in NF's that the people around them will see the benefits. Unconscious or conscious, I do think that urge is there, no matter how benevolent.
    I think everyone has a great hope that others around them will understand their deep passions and drives, and will glimpse the world in the same light they do. My INTP dad (half-jokingly) expresses fairly often that if we could only see the world through his eyes, we would understand why he is right. I don't think this is unique to NFs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not at all. We just call it contingency planning.


    I did not interpret your post as implying NF connecting was best/only/ideal. My reply was intentionally a bit heavy-handed. I'm not sure emotionally connecting would be unsatisfying for an NT, and most of us probably could use more of it than we get. There seems to be a catch-22 about it, though. We're not good at it, so attempts often lead to frustration and misunderstanding, so we become even more hesitant to try, so we never improve.

    So, in trying to connect with an NF, is it better to try connecting emotionally, as they prefer; or to encourage them to try connecting more intellectually as we prefer; or something else? It's a bit like trying to communicate with someone who speaks another language. When doing that, it works well for each of us to speak our own language, in which we are most fluent, while trying to listen and comprehend the other language. Learning experiences, however, are a different story.
    Oh, I see what you mean about the catch-22. I think that's why a lot of times INTJ-ENFP conversations can be good, though. ENFPs are primarily idea-people, even if we are NFs, so it's generally satisfying to converse with INTJs since you are idea-people too, even if you are also NTs. And then from our mutual realm of ideas we can branch gently into heavier Fi and Te oriented conversation, respectively.

    Makes you wonder about cross-type communication, though. Socionics asserts that your dual has the highest best-relationship potential, and they're totally opposite from you. You'll be pushing each other to grow into the opposite domain essentially every single time you interact. Maybe that's why it's encourages the best. But I have to think that maybe it's one of the most difficult, too.

  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So, in trying to connect with an NF, is it better to try connecting emotionally, as they prefer; or to encourage them to try connecting more intellectually as we prefer; or something else? It's a bit like trying to communicate with someone who speaks another language. When doing that, it works well for each of us to speak our own language, in which we are most fluent, while trying to listen and comprehend the other language. Learning experiences, however, are a different story.
    I can't speak for all NFs, but it's pretty easy for me to tell when someone is consciously trying to come off a certain way to me, and their effort is likely to either turn me off or feel bad for them.

    I very much enjoy relating to people on their own terms; it's always a fun challenge for me to pick out the assumptions implicit to their thinking style. Also, the prototypical NT thinking style is actually much easier for me to deal with than that of the other temperaments (including NFs), because all I have to do is translate my ideas into an impersonal narrative, which I find comforting anyway. On top of that, I get a kick out of arguing with NTs on the merits of emotional awareness (like I was trying to do in my other posts in this thread).

    With NTs I feel safe because, well, I know the rules. The better argument just wins.

  7. #37
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Our perceptions are incapable of percieving what is actual. (Or, we are incapable of knowing if our perceptions percieve what is actual).

    From that point, it is better to just accept this and move on to more pressing matters. Endlessly trying to resolve that difference (especially with others) is futile. With other people involved, the best you could hope for is to achieve a consensus of what is being percieved...which is all nice and dandy, but it leads nowhere.

    From the nfs all I was hearing was "this is what I percieved and this is how it affected my self" and "that's funny, this is how it affected my self. Why the difference?" Then endless debates about whose self was affected "better" or "more accurately". The goal seemed to be about resolving the two differing selves in order to participate in a nice make up session at the end of it all. But the actuality of it all was completely lost in the discussion.

    Granted, the actuality will always be lost, but it should always remain central.
    Well, the NF theory is that sensual perception will only scratch the surface of what "is actual" and can only provide clues to suggest what it could lie underneath. We, instead, attempt to perceive the underlying truth intuitively, feeling out and exploring deeply instinctual impressions and gaining insight through indirect and intangible means.

    Think of Plato's cave allegory: people sitting in a candlelit cave watching shadows projected on the walls, believing they are perceiving reality. But the philosopher questions it and looks for something more; he is then freed and able walk outside and see the "true reality". I suppose it sounds grandiose to use this to demonstrate it and I don't mean to ascribe this ability only to NFs - it is only what we attempt to do. I think there are different approaches to uncovering the "true reality", some of which are conflicting (yours, for example, seems to be that it is impossible to uncover it at all), but the point is that we can't know for sure whose theory is correct; we only know what truth resonates with ourselves. We then seek to better understand and define it, and attempt explain the elements the undermine or question it. So you see, when you say we should just get over it and move on to more pressing matters, to the NFs this is like telling us to just accept the lie of cave and the shadows on the walls, and to not pursue anything more meaningful - which is not something we are keen to do.

    And it is fine for you to disagree, but you should remember that your experience of the world is just as subjective, and that your theory is just as (objectively) unprovable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So, in trying to connect with an NF, is it better to try connecting emotionally, as they prefer; or to encourage them to try connecting more intellectually as we prefer; or something else? It's a bit like trying to communicate with someone who speaks another language. When doing that, it works well for each of us to speak our own language, in which we are most fluent, while trying to listen and comprehend the other language. Learning experiences, however, are a different story.
    I think this is a misinterpretation of what we are doing. NFs discuss things in an intellectual manner constantly - in fact I rarely consciously attempt to emotionally connect (unconsciously, I can't say). However, we intellectualise emotions and human behaviour more than NTs, and perhaps what the NTs hear is simply expression of feelings. Really it's a more of difference in what subject matter interests us and in what we each deem practical information.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #38
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    less talking more doing !

    Best way to get rid of nfs
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #39
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not at all. We just call it contingency planning.


    So, in trying to connect with an NF, is it better to try connecting emotionally, as they prefer; or to encourage them to try connecting more intellectually as we prefer; or something else? It's a bit like trying to communicate with someone who speaks another language. When doing that, it works well for each of us to speak our own language, in which we are most fluent, while trying to listen and comprehend the other language. Learning experiences, however, are a different story.
    Shit, there are times I've drawn a picture on a whiteboard.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  10. #40
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I'm a bad nf cuz i rarely know what's going on inside maybe not i haven't read the thread. am I going to? nah

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