• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INFP] INFPs: Which type do you think is your ideal romantic match?

INFPs: Which type do you think is your ideal romantic match?


  • Total voters
    77

SD45T-2

Senior Jr.
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
4,227
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w2
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Anyway, why do I post this? Because I think the ESTJ love gets a bad rap here and I want you girls to keep your minds open to the kind of sweetness and steadfastness an ESTJ can bring to your life. Especially now in our 40's ... as that inner romantic gets more and more developed.

True, you could enjoy love with all types, but just remember that before you shush the STJ's away. I feel very blessed.

Blessed indeed, they are exceedingly precious. :wub:
:blush:
 

AverOblivious1

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w1
i was ilustrating that the claim is pointless - the ignorance can sit on either side of the problem, depending on which of the above described PoV you chose to adhere too.

you have something that behaves like Fi, and if you choose to view functions as behavioral descriptions only, then it can be said that you have Fi, in which case my illustration would suggest i am ignorant to what Fi is simply because i am suggesting that the "Fi-like" behavior can stem from something else altogether, as in the first philosophy there's no question to what it stems from in the first place, and thus it wouldn't matter, there's no distinction between "Fi" and "Fi-like", since the likeness is the only criteria.

if you choose to take the (somewhat higher risk and more presumptuous) endeavor of thinking of functions as more then that, a.k.a. a more detailed phenomena then just the surface manifestation which has deeper cognitive origin, then the question of whether something is Fi or Fi-like but with a different origin, then the possibility you have something which acts like Fi but has alternative origins is likely.

such as the one i suggested, your version of Fi-like-behavior being "Fe in a box", or any other. the first version is more reliable, but the second version is a lot more interesting. for example, in myself i know that Fe+Si, can resemble Fi at times, but when examined deeper its very distinct from Fi, it's about feeling when there's a contrast with what is basically "habits[Si] of thoughtfulness[Fe]" rather then any deep seated moral sense of right and wrong. likewise, Ti+Ne can manifest in ways which resemble Ni without actually being Ni or carrying much of the implications that Ni has. in this manner, the exploration of function theory can become less metaphorical and a lot more meaningful.

So true. What @Salome is saying doesn't really seem to back much evidence (and why we would have to bother about Fe or Fi in the first place if we could be users for all the 8 functions. If you recognize Fi in yourself maybe you have it as a preferred function seems more right. :huh: )
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
So true. What @Salome is saying doesn't really seem to back much evidence (and why we would have to bother about Fe or Fi in the first place if we could be users for all the 8 functions. If you recognize Fi in yourself maybe you have it as a preferred function seems more right. :huh: )

You won't find much evidence as far as MBTI is concerned. It's a joke theory, junk food. If someone says they have access to a function outside of the main stack the theory says they should have its better to at least humour them (if not believe them) and adjust the theory accordingly. There isn't any universal agreement on whether we use 4 functions or 8 functions (though I don't think we actually use any.)
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There isn't any universal agreement on whether we use 4 functions or 8 functions (though I don't think we actually use any.)
I always find it absurd that people think it's possible to be human and conscious and not completely retarded and not use (the correlates) of both Si and Se, for example.
Of course we do. We all do. Though, sadly, most people seem to get by without ever using Ti.
 

1487610420

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
6,431
I always find it absurd that people think it's possible to be human and conscious and not completely retarded and not use (the correlates) of both Si and Se, for example.
Of course we do. We all do. Though, sadly, most people seem to get by without ever using Ti.

:rofl1:
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
I always find it absurd that people think it's possible to be human and conscious and not completely retarded and not use (the correlates) of both Si and Se, for example.
Of course we do. We all do. Though, sadly, most people seem to get by without ever using Ti.

I agree with the 8 function model, though I have my doubts that MBTI and a function even exists. I believe that if neuroscience advances on its current course MBTI will be inevitably thrown out and function theory superceded. As for Ti, perhaps we all use it but it's just not listened to? You need to keep some attention on the inner world, if not you could end up with an unfortunate scenario similar to mowing your lawn outside when a burgular has sneaked into your house through the alternate entrance and is stealing your stuff from right underneath your nose.
 

AverOblivious1

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w1
I agree with the 8 function model, though I have my doubts that MBTI and a function even exists. I believe that if neuroscience advances on its current course MBTI will be inevitably thrown out and function theory superceded. As for Ti, perhaps we all use it but it's just not listened to? You need to keep some attention on the inner world, if not you could end up with an unfortunate scenario similar to mowing your lawn outside when a burgular has sneaked into your house through the alternate entrance and is stealing your stuff from right underneath your nose.

Yeah. I've heard MBTI is based on Jungian theory which I hear is based on random accounts of patients Jung personally analyzed, and how his patients identified with their inhibitions/excitations. So I reckon the basis needs to be stronger for it to be anywhere near the potential of neuroscience or even well defined psychological theory.
[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] What you're saying has maybe a good thinking process behind it. But there is also the idea that we have noticed things like Se/Si but we repress one or the either (it's just what we've grown to adapt to), I can repress Fe, but that doesn't mean I can't connect with the feelings of the group (I usually display this behavior espesh when I get overly shy and quiet), but that I don't have the line of cognitive thinking that most people who identify with Fe have. I think what MBTI tries to describe (trying really hardily) are the things that are common amongst people in personality (like Jung set out), rather than common behavior. We can repress and express behavior all the time. But cognitively we inevitably repress something, and I think MBTI theory tries to say that that greater thing within us that is repressed is maybe.. Fe in my case, or Fi in your case.

MBTI can be pretty pseudo though, maybe there is some common ground there.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
^Your posts don't make sense to me, so I don't know how to respond.
I agree with the 8 function model, though I have my doubts that MBTI and a function even exists. I believe that if neuroscience advances on its current course MBTI will be inevitably thrown out and function theory superceded. As for Ti, perhaps we all use it but it's just not listened to? You need to keep some attention on the inner world, if not you could end up with an unfortunate scenario similar to mowing your lawn outside when a burgular has sneaked into your house through the alternate entrance and is stealing your stuff from right underneath your nose.
I think of functions as metaphorical buckets for holding ideas about different ways of engaging with reality. As such they exist, even if they have no fine-grained neural correlates to map onto. One doesn't have to accept any particular ordering scheme or other dogma about how functions interact in order to accept their existence.

They exist simply because we have a language for talking about them, and that language represents aspects of reality as we experience it. A kind of shorthand.
Insofar as a concept has utility, it has validity.
It's as senseless to say there is no such thing as Fi as to say there is no such thing as integrity. Can we prove integrity has objective existence? Not really. Nevertheless, it's a useful idea.

Your analogy is strange. I'm not sure how it relates to use/non-use of Ti.
 

1487610420

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
6,431
Jung dreamt a great deal about the dead, the land of the dead, and the rising of the dead. These represented the unconscious itself -- not the "little" personal unconscious that Freud made such a big deal out of, but a new collective unconscious of humanity itself, an unconscious that could contain all the dead, not just our personal ghosts. Jung began to see the mentally ill as people who are haunted by these ghosts, in an age where no-one is supposed to even believe in them. If we could only recapture our mythologies, we would understand these ghosts, become comfortable with the dead, and heal our mental illnesses.

:popc1:
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
^Your posts don't make sense to me, so I don't know how to respond.
I think of functions as metaphorical buckets for holding ideas about different ways of engaging with reality. As such they exist, even if they have no fine-grained neural correlates to map onto. One doesn't have to accept any particular ordering scheme or other dogma about how functions interact in order to accept their existence.

They exist simply because we have a language for talking about them, and that language represents aspects of reality as we experience it. A kind of shorthand.
Insofar as a concept has utility, it has validity.
It's as senseless to say there is no such thing as Fi as to say there is no such thing as integrity. Can we prove integrity has objective existence? Not really. Nevertheless, it's a useful idea.

Your analogy is strange. I'm not sure how it relates to use/non-use of Ti.

Excuse me. My analogy was suggesting situations where Ti is perfectly operational but a person's external focus or fixation on the external world means that the individual in question does not listen to it or even acknowledge it exists - to their detriment.

I agree with you on the definition of "function." The image I had in mind in terms of advancement would be an increasingly refined knowledge of the brain, to the point where a "function" needs to be divided into multiple smaller classifications so the theory maintain consistency to the evidence (e.g. Fi-I, Fi-II where each have their own individual and perhaps non-overlapping workings) perhaps to the point where a person would use hundreds if not thousands of "cognitive functions" and that hundreds if not thousands of MBTI types would exist as a result. Although "functions" haven't been disproven it becomes obsolete in the sense which Jung originally envisioned.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Excuse me. My analogy was suggesting situations where Ti is perfectly operational but a person's external focus or fixation on the external world means that the individual in question does not listen to it or even acknowledge it exists - to their detriment.

Ah, ok. I think the nature of consciousness is such that a function cannot be "perfectly operational" if it is consistently disregarded/disfavoured. Much as a muscle cannot be perfectly operational if it isn't stretched from time to time.

Edit. Increased knowledge of the brain is unlikely to lead us into the territory you describe. Essentially, JCF is about mind not matter, it has more to do with philosophy than neuroscience. Jung was more mystic than scientist.
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
Ah, ok. I think the nature of consciousness is such that a function cannot be "perfectly operational" if it is consistently disregarded/disfavoured. Much as a muscle cannot be perfectly operational if it isn't stretched from time to time.

Edit. Increased knowledge of the brain is unlikely to lead us into the territory you describe. Essentially, JCF is about mind not matter, it has more to do with philosophy than neuroscience. Jung was more mystic than scientist.

You raise a good point. Perhaps I should replace "perfectly operational" with "a suitable amount of resources which could be utilised for this purpose if the individual in question chose to focus enough so it would be utilised."

As for paragraph 2 I would say that supports my previous comment that MBTI is a load of crap outside of pop psychology to entertain yourself with. The scenario I envisioned required the adjustment of the theory so that it did correspond more with matter e.g. Thomson or Nardi though with a lot of extra work.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Mind and matter are incompatible/alternative approaches. Neither is inherently superior.

Mind may well be an emergent phenomenon and as such, we won't be able to dissect it and label it with anything approaching clinical precision.
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
I agree completely. Determining the nature of a "cognitive function" would have its roots in guesswork and conjecture, for example in "experiments" like those carried out by Thomson or Nardi. "Wow, it lights up there when this fellow claims to be using Te. It doesn't matter whether he's not using Te or is perhaps using Te along with another function, let's label that part of the brain Te!" From that point they only empirically narrow down on the area they "believe" to be Te.

The idealist in me however does like to entertain the idea that (assuming mind is an illusion and consciousness purely exists as a creation of the material brain of course) that with significant technological gains and the completion of a hypothetical complete reverse engineering of the human brain project we would be able to completely chart the dimensions of both the subconscious and conscious mind and if a "cognitive function" can be measured in any conceivable form measure it.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Also content-free, yes.
I agree completely. Determining the nature of a "cognitive function" would have its roots in guesswork and conjecture, for example in "experiments" like those carried out by Thomson or Nardi. "Wow, it lights up there when this fellow claims to be using Te. It doesn't matter whether he's not using Te or is perhaps using Te along with another function, let's label that part of the brain Te!" From that point they only empirically narrow down on the area they "believe" to be Te.

You're doing that weird INFP thing of asserting complete agreement where there is none.
It's cute. ;)

Thomson didn't do any work on this personally and her source has been thoroughly discredited. Nardi's "research" is incomprehensible. He doesn't even offer a hypothesis for his findings to support.
Something of a dead end. We simply do not understand enough about how the brain works to draw any kind of conclusion. For example, we can't even say whether an area of the brain that "lights up" does so because it is active or because it is inhibiting another part. Also, "lighting up" implies a lot of mental effort which is incompatible with the idea of skilled use requiring minimal effort and efficient energy use.
It would be very foolish and premature to attempt to draw advanced conclusions when the basic research is yet to be done.

Far from being idealistic, your second paragraph is strongly materialistic...
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
Also content-free, yes.

You're doing that weird INFP thing of asserting complete agreement where there is none.
It's cute. ;)

Thomson didn't do any work on this personally and her source has been thoroughly discredited. Nardi's "research" is incomprehensible. He doesn't even offer a hypothesis for his findings to support.
Something of a dead end. We simply do not understand enough about how the brain works to draw any kind of conclusion. For example, we can't even say whether an area of the brain that "lights up" does so because it is active or because it is inhibiting another part. Also, "lighting up" implies a lot of mental effort which is incompatible with the idea of skilled use requiring minimal effort and efficient energy use.
It would be very foolish and premature to attempt to draw advanced conclusions when the basic research is yet to be done.

Far from being idealistic, your second paragraph is strongly materialistic...

Hey look who it is! I trust you have been well :) I'm going to do the cute INFP thing again and completely agree with you. I reserve the right (no matter how ignorant it could potentially make me seem in certain situations) to focus and agree on the gist of what you are saying whilst not noticing or utilising the more precise details. Can be really messy, working on it.

In my view the brain is much like a foreign language where a cipher or perhaps a key to begin translating may or may not exist. My scenario assumed that a number of steps not mentioned had taken place, one being that the brain was at least understood to a point where much of the brain's workings could be deductively determined beyond reasonable doubt so a model of it (with an "acceptable" margin of error) could be created where function "research" similar to Nardi or Thomson (preferably a version which isn't completely rubbish) being worked into if not completely superimposed onto the model and after that point make continued confident deductive steps.

I hope it doesn't look like I'm moving the goalposts here (there's a time and place for that.) Your feedback is making me consider things from new directions and I appreciate your help modifying them. Thanks. Also I can't help but feel you have already long since considered every point of view or idea I have suggested in these various threads :)

As for idealism, I consider it idealistic as I consider the potential destination the material's application could lead to as essentially world changing and on the whole an ultimate destination...but perhaps beyond implausible to the point of being pure pipe dream.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Goddamn. What does a girl have to do to get into an argument around here?
 

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
Goddamn. What does a girl have to do to get into an argument around here?

You can try insulting me or hitting me with something. It's not my fault if I agree with your views! Show me one I can't agree with! Or alternatively, try a different thread?

I shall now perform my latest ballad: "The burden of the Devil's advocate."

No offence Salomé but your views suck the big one. You made a serious mistake criticising Nardi's work and if a part of the brain is inhibiting another part of the brain when it "lights up" then are we seriously supposed to believe that all activity in the inhibited part went unnoticed? Not a single indicator that two parts of the brain are in use through any of the finest technology money can buy? If it managed to completely suppress it without leaving a single trace then you have one fucking brilliant cover-up there. Wait, I don't know if I'm actually playing Devil's advocate anymore...

Anyhoo, women should be out in the kitchen cleaning my shoes rather than wasting time online discussing things they shouldn't be thinking about.
 
Top