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  1. #11
    Member cheap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I even feel guilty about someone else's sin, sometimes.
    Wow, I feel this way too. It's like I feel the guilt they would (or should) be feeling whenever they do something "evil." Recently I replied in a forum thread where the guy had cheated on this girl because their relationship was rocky. I told him that it was a positive thing that he was feeling awful as that will motivate him to change, "use your guilt constructively," which is a simple and positive way I view Christianity too when people groan about the whole Jesus guilt trip. Anyway, the guy thought I was being too "soft" because he "deserved more abuse" for what he'd done...

    This view has led me to value mercy over justice in everyday life. I can't stand it when people feel the need to seek revenge. I always presume, indicative of my own tendencies, that whenever people sin, their remorse will be so overwhelming that it'd be unfair to come down *too* hard on them. I don't think "learning the hard way" is always necessarily through experiencing vengeance happening to you, although it may be in most cases, especiallt if you aren't an NF.

    I have an extremely critical older sister and now I realise why I get so angry whenever she gives me a lecture on inadequacy; I cop it enough from myself and learn life lessons from my own guilt.

  2. #12
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    I luuuuuurve evil.

    Especially the evil inside me, it's baking like a warm cake. The conventional idea of evil has always excited me and I try to research it as much as I can in real life cases in a crass attempt to quantify it.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Butterfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.

    What do you think ?
    True, I agree with you. Even when I read a sad fictional book, it makes me sad for days! I remember this happening to me for 5 days, I was completely shattered. It does affect my mood and happiness.
    This morning's newspaper had a similar story of some ppl being beaten to death by the crowd (mob justice etc). I was soooo sad. Thats why I avoid reading newspapers, because it makes me depressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    I luuuuuurve evil.

    Especially the evil inside me, it's baking like a warm cake. The conventional idea of evil has always excited me and I try to research it as much as I can in real life cases in a crass attempt to quantify it.
    Oh no!! Now i cant sleep for days
    lol kidding.
    But seriously, what is it about evil that intrigues you??

  4. #14
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    I don't know... for me, I think, if there's a personal connection there, it affects me pretty strongly. Something as minimal as an occasional sad advertisement can bring tears to my eyes, and books and songs (oh, and of course, movies) have been known to make me cry outright, but for something like the morning paper, well, it's impersonal enough that I naturally skim over the top and don't get emotionally invested.

    I am, however, pretty damn sensitive to people around me - my thoughts sometimes chase themselves around in circles for hours in regret over one tiny little action of mine which may have caused someone else to feel awkward or hurt or something. I feel miserable when I admit to myself that some people genuinely irritate me. ()

    Oh, and this one time when a close friend of mine was the target of a major smear campaign (and it had nothing to do with me at all), not only did I burst into tears when my dad asked me how my day was, but the next day I missed school entirely because I simply wouldn't get out of bed, I was that miserable.
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  5. #15
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheap View Post
    This view has led me to value mercy over justice in everyday life. I can't stand it when people feel the need to seek revenge. I always presume, indicative of my own tendencies, that whenever people sin, their remorse will be so overwhelming that it'd be unfair to come down *too* hard on them. I don't think "learning the hard way" is always necessarily through experiencing vengeance happening to you, although it may be in most cases, especiallt if you aren't an NF.
    There's a difference between justice and vengeance. Justice is an attempt to set things right so that it'll never happen again. Vengeance is emotionally driven and just to seek closure for harms. They can sometimes look similar but they are not the same. For many people, a simple slap on the wrist does nothing.

    There's a difference in being too hard on somebody and simply letting them go free. Draconian prisons didn't work because the people who stayed there were more criminal when they left than when they entered. That would be considered too harsh, but just because that doesn't work doesn't mean we should give up trying to deal justice. If people don't understand how their actions are hurting others, there needs to be an artificial system in place. This is why we have 'justice.' Not for revenge, but to prevent further transgressions.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #16
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.
    I'm not.

    Those things I consider wrong or evil are so only because I judge them so. Wrong and evil, as external moral judgements, are projections of my values onto things - they are not inherent qualities of the things deemed wrong or evil. As such, I prefer to not judge, and choose to accept instead.

    In so choosing, I find I experience a full range of emotions as things come and go in my awareness, but because I do not choose to take on the burden of judgement, I find I have the resources to witness my emotional experience without becoming overwhelmed or paralyzed.

    I don't find it productive to think of my own person as good or evil, or a mix of those things. I prefer a more integral, and loving, self-image.

    That said, that's an idealization. There are those times when I am limbically aroused and I am not mindful or gentle with myself. Instead I am quite judging of my person, and seek a punitive expression. This happens less and less as my knowledge and acceptance of self grows.

    The ideas of Dr. Marshall Rosenberg as expressed in his books on non-violent communication have had a profound impact on my relationships and the way I experience the world. Letting go of ideas like "wrong" and "evil," applied as moral judgement, has been a big part of that.


    cheers,
    Ian

  7. #17
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Oh no!! Now i cant sleep for days
    lol kidding.
    But seriously, what is it about evil that intrigues you??
    I have no idea. I suppose the old addage is correct: evil is sexy. At the same time I don't believe any intrinsic form of evil actually exists.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Are you NFs absolutely paralysed by any thing wrong or evil when you are exposed to it? That includes the evil inside of yourself.
    Last week, I did something bad, but it was an accident, and it wasn't meant to hurt anyone, and the people involved knew it. Well, I felt miserable and humbled for days. I felt like I wasn't worthy to be alive. I felt like the world would be better off without me.
    In the same way, when I meet aggressive or manipulative people, my stomach and heart turn upside down and I feel miserable. I've read many times that NFs were like sponges, they would just absorb everything emotional in the flow of life. The same way we can be profoundly happy and exalted in a way few types possibly can, we are intolerant to evil to a point where living in this sinful world feels like inhabiting a huge sewer. I even feel guilty about someone else's sin, sometimes. [...]
    There was a time in my youth when I was super-sensitive to things: The bad moods of people around me, catastrophes in the news, missteps on my own part, etc. But as I've gotten older, I've learned to examine these things with a more critical eye.

    Evil in the world around me:

    When times are good, people tend to be generous and forgiving; when times are difficult, people get more selfish and are more prone to look out for their own interest and screw the other guy.

    So like Mort Belfry, I tend to study evil; I try to see what combination of events and suppositions caused otherwise-decent people to get caught up in mean acts (either historically, or in the immediate environment around me).

    I think it wrongly objectifies and dismisses the actions of others to describe them as "sin" or "evil" in the purely religious sense, as though once certain people or their actions cross a threshold I don't have to worry about them anymore; I just condemn them, confront them, or kill them.

    Instead, I tend to see things in a more psychological sense, as being on a continuum running from lawful/healthy at one end to illegal/unhealthy at the other. In that sense, things are more understandable and maybe even treatable/fixable, if it falls under my purview to do that. As the Roman playwright Lucretius said, "I am human; nothing human is alien to me."

    Evil in myself:

    The same principles apply in myself. Rather than simply amputate parts of myself that I don't like, I would rather take Aeon's approach and study myself. I look at the patterns that show up in my life, study my motivations, and try to develop new patterns or responses to events as needed.

    Just one example, using my INFP wife as the subject (to keep the example more impersonal):

    My wife is an INFP like me. She belongs to a couple art clubs, and at one club in particular she is a junior member on the board in charge of the club. She sees the petty rip-offs that senior board members perpetrate on the membership, and she feels compelled to play kind of a gadfly role on the board. Worse yet, other members push her to expose these and other rip-offs but won't actually go public themselves. So my wife increasingly feels herself caught in the middle between an irritable membership and an uncaring board, becoming increasingly caught up in conflict, isolated, and burning her bridges with people she once cared about and respected.

    It's a typical INFP predicament and a reason why INFPs are known to flit from one cause to the next; we join a cause, become disillusioned with the "human element," get caught up in conflict, and eventually have to quit and move on. I've done it myself.

    But with a better understanding of MBTI, I think it's possible to get out of that bind and have more choices. Fi (Introverted Feeling) makes INFPs judgmental and hypersensitive to certain kinds of rip-offs. With respect to the board, my wife can choose to realize that the other board members don't have Fi like her and don't necessarily see a big problem with breaking the letter of the law as long as the spirit of the law is maintained. So my wife could fine-tune her own filter a bit and continue to play her gadfly role but learn to back off before arriving at the point where she burns all her bridges, by keeping in mind that the rest of the board mean well; they just don't have the same sensitivity to the issues as her.

    Similarly, my wife needn't feel pushed into conflict by the membership. It may be that they recognize and respect her Fi and use her as a sounding board for testing whether issues are worth confronting and fighting; but it doesn't necessarily mean that my wife has to be the one to fight them. As issues arise, my wife could choose to play other roles, such as an counselor or arbiter. She isn't bound or required to play only the one role of gadfly and champion of the oppressed.

    That's just one limited and rather prosaic example of a personal problem (albeit one that's common to INFPs). But the same kind of thinking can apply to other patterns and impulses that trap us on the personal level. Study the dynamic that's occurring, and look for ways to broaden our response and generate new choices. To me, that's healthier than just calling something "evil" or "sinful" and trying to lop it off so that it doesn't trouble us anymore.

    ********

    That's probably TMI, in the sense of a long-winded answer to a simple question. But that's how I approach things these days. Instead of slapping a label on things, I try to investigate the dynamic and see events and people as just one more variation of "the human experience."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Angry Ayrab's Avatar
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    Thank God I heard you guys talking about this, I really thought I was starting to lose it. I have always been crippled by my own sins, and then even more crippled by my indifference to sins I have committed for a while. I feel like I am always guilty, but I am going to relate a story to you that really sheds light on how sensitive to this I am.

    I went with a friend to a club once. I have never been to a club before, I have never drank and if I do something stupid like intoxicate myself, it would be alone in secret. Anyway, I went to this club and sat down for a few minutes. 15 minutes into the experience I ran out and just dry heaved for a few minutes and had to leave. Well what led to it is when I was in their, I just felt this whole atmosphere of evil. I walked in, and people were drunk, women were dressed as slutty as possible, men were on the prowl, people were eating, some were dancing, I am pretty sure many were on some crazy drugs. There was smoke everywhere, lights flashing on and off, people making out. To most this would sound normal and fun. What I personally saw was the decay of everything human. The pure giving in to hedonism, and just being animals. People are dying left and right and all you can think of is luring in some stupid girl to use her as your semen recepticle. I was affected by this for a week but I really can't step near any place so associated with hedonism.

    The odd thing, is I could have probably out socialized anyone in there, I can pick up any girl I want and I can do all that, but something about this atmosphere kills me. The only time I find myself succumbing to my own blind hedonism is when I have free time on my hands. Idle hands are the devils playground, simple as that.

    Rant off, god I wish could explain my internal feelings better. The best I can say was that satan ran that night club.

  10. #20
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Is it possible that Fi is better at coping or objectifying "evil" than Fe?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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