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[MBTI General] short rant on NFs

SolitaryWalker

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If that is the case, that is fine and I admit its an error in my judgement. I should've taken it with more humour.





Logic is the most objective concept that humans have approximated. Logic efficiently utilised in maths, is hardly falsified, that is correct, but the person utilising its logical variant in understanding human tendencies, is not as efficient in its usage, since human nature is not as accurately quantifiable as say maths. A person's subjective experiences in life, limit the use of logic because of constraint by time in history, culture, family, peers, nature to name some. Imperfections, in this regard have to be accepted, otherwise effective critique in logic can be hindered and contextual understanding of MBTI in the remit of other thought, which would hinder precision and refinement. Taking an absolutionist approach to the perfection of one's logical perception, will cause a slow down, in taking into account more subtle methodological critques of one's perspective. There is difference in acknowledgment and proactively critiquing one's absolutionist approach.

Your point is valid, when taking in various assumed variables about the internal and external world. It depends on what environment the Thinker or Feeler is trying to progress in, if there is heavy focus on a value system and social cohesion, there can be situations, where the thinker can potentailly suffer from his or her feeling deficiencies. Also this is under the assumption, that the "purpose" you describe is of an equal race end, between thinkers and feelers. Thinkers may have a solid purpose, while NFs, being of the idealist quandrant have a similarly hypothetical equivalent of "purpose", but are perfectionists, so want further refinement, this can cause a relative slowdown true, however the irrational function of NF, may cause them to work harder once that purpose is obtained, than the logics of a thinker would, causing societal progress i.e Martin Luther King, Gandhi, to mention the prominent ones or at least arbitary self gain, which is considered a bad thing for some. All humans are selfish though in some manner, it varies, overlaps and is a lot down to perception.

The clear sense of self issue, is a drawback, individual's emotions are hard to measure objectively, posing more difficulty in the one that has more prominent usage in it, that is fair. I have no objection that Ti/Te users would be at a natural advantage in impersonal analysis generally and the difference you explained between Ti conceptual advantage and Te implementation advantage.

Btw, I find your opinions very interesting and thought provoking, even if I don't agree with everything, there aren't many that contribute so much in their posts.

We have established that only through logical thinking one can have a clear-cut purpose.

Martin Luther and Ghandi were NFs who had a clear-cut purpose. Therefore they were the exceptional NFs who were skilled at things they are not talented in. Such NFs are rare as very few of us are skilled at what we are not talented in.

I generally find your posts to be informative, from a logical standpoint. But it's pretty clear you have a strong bias in favor of T over F.

Who defines what these "priorities" are? For an NF, feeling good involves making sure others are also feeling good. Perhaps this is not a logical priority, but it is still a priority.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you don't quite understand NF's because you're trying to logically analyze them. Since your priorities are based upon efficiency and utility, it's not surprising you would see NF's as flighty, unstructured, and undisciplined. But be aware that your NT inclinations are filtering your perspective of reality. Objectivity here is limited.

I am sure NFs would like to think they care about others as much as they care about themselves, but this could only be so if they go against their natural predilections. That cannot be so unless they use Thinking. If they use Feeling, they are doing merely what feels right, and people are selfish by nature. Most NFs are not good at the use of Thinking and therefore are unable to avoid being selfish. Our lower functions tend to be subordinate to the higher. Hence, an NF has an irrational vision produced by N and F that they are an altruistic person and therefore use Thinking to convince themselves that this is so.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
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wow, and ENFP's are the ones 'accused' of using all their energy to shove comments aside because they don't wanna hear them? :whistling:
 

ragashree

Reason vs Being
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Bluewing: You seemed by your numerous requests for me to elaborate on what I was saying either to be having difficulty in comprehending me, or to have a real wish for me to analyse your hypothesis in more detail. If you would like me to show you in more detail how your argument is flawed by your subjectivity and emotiveness, I would be delighted to do so on another thread in a more appropriate location, such as the phillosophy or psycholgy sub-forums. I am not going to do so further on this thread, however, as it has recieved far too much attention already and has become hijacked by discussion of your hypothesis since you posted. Please set up a thread for this purpose, inform me of it, and restate your original premise, and I would be happy to discuss ithe subject with you further.
 

Wild horses

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Is it just me or is there some kind of cold war going on between the NTs and NFs (A cold war that we don't know we're?) There seems to be more and more threads emerging by NTs ranting over NFs and our forums, our ways, jeez our very existence.. LOL And I though my ISTJ friends had it tough on here...
 

Gish

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Is it just me or is there some kind of cold war going on between the NTs and NFs (A cold war that we don't know we're?) There seems to be more and more threads emerging by NTs ranting over NFs and our forums, our ways, jeez our very existence.. LOL And I though my ISTJ friends had it tough on here...

It's not the NTs, it is Bluewing and a select few.
 

Gish

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To Bluewing: You seem to have formed your opinion and then tried to make it "truth" by using what you call "Logical thinking". If you are NT as you claim then this is not natural for you, rather backward. I think you need to stop projecting just because one or two supposed NFs in your life hurt your feelings.
 

runvardh

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It's called putting us in our place, BW will settle down to lurking again once he runs out of fuel.
 

phoenix13

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Is it just me or is there some kind of cold war going on between the NTs and NFs (A cold war that we don't know we're?) There seems to be more and more threads emerging by NTs ranting over NFs and our forums, our ways, jeez our very existence.. LOL And I though my ISTJ friends had it tough on here...

No, there's definitely a rivalry dynamic. Part of it seems cultural... Thinking is a glorified process, and Feeling is seen as fluffy/bull $#!t/unnecessary/less valuable than Ti/Te. Exacerbating that perception: it's far easier to verbalize a decision/judgement reached through impersonal analysis than through subjective value systems. Therefore, NFs can easily find themselves unable to explain their decisions/judgements to NTs, who may then assume our dec./judgements are invalid, etc.

In the end, however, the majority of NTs on this site seem to agree that both T and F are valuable and necessary cognitive functions.
 

Jack Flak

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No, there's definitely a rivalry dynamic. Part of it seems cultural... Thinking is a glorified process, and Feeling is seen as fluffy/bull $#!t/unnecessary/less valuable than Ti/Te. Exacerbating that perception: it's far easier to verbalize a decision/judgement reached through impersonal analysis than through subjective value systems. Therefore, NFs can easily find themselves unable to explain their decisions/judgements to NTs, who may then assume our dec./judgements are invalid, etc.

In the end, however, the majority of NTs on this site seem to agree that both T and F are valuable and necessary cognitive functions.
What the fuck are Ti and Te? ;)
 

bronte

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. The negative consequences of callousness are obviously much less severe, as callousness leads to nothing nearly as deleterious as a situation where one lacks a sense of purpose in life as well as a clear sense of self.

Hi Bluewing

I do have a sense of purpose in my life and spent many years in a caring profession pursuing this 'purpose'. I own my lack of logic - hands up! - and I seriously work on this and look to improve my self awareness - I do not see myself as more compassionate or 'nice' than the next person and struggle with diffrent aspects of myself - as most people do - a dont believe this means I have a very distorted sense of 'self' anymore than you have yourself.


During my time in care work most of my colleagues were 'feelers' and they did very difficult work with very vulnerable people - they made mistakes, and yes at time were over emotional - but they were in the main very very compassionate people who went the extra mile. It was their 'feeling' that led them to do this type of work.

And I have seen callousness destroy people's self confidence and ruin lives.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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It is interesting to see ways MBTI generates prejudicial thinking in different scenarios. As a newer phenomenon than social constructs like race or religion, and without the same kinds of social history and complexity, it provides an interesting opportunity for sociological studies. I sometimes wonder whether prejudices are more deeply ingrained in the context of socially constructed categories, if part of what generates these categories and the prevailing interest is the underlying need to make a lower resolution of the world in an attempt to make it more predictable and manageable. It would be interesting to see if people ever construct "us-them" categories and then consider "them" to be superior. Most of the time it is a way to define self as different and superior to "them"

I don't think it is possible to debate against a conclusion of superiority. It appears to be human nature to construct these categories and then define the other as inferior for whatever reasons and purposes. Accepting someone as your equal who assumes you are inferior can be challenging, but sometimes it makes the strongest case for equality.
 

Simplexity

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I never knew you felt so strongly about equal rights for women. It's a bummer that they have to deal with that...

I kid, I kid.

It's a good point though. I think you can't necessarily view it in strict binary terms like that. You have to introduce the concept of purpose, and viewing it in that light, it is a much more convincing case for "equality." No matter how much you feel someone is inferior or superior there is usually a purpose behind each.
 

Jack Flak

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I don't think it is possible to debate against a conclusion of superiority. It appears to be human nature to construct these categories and then define the other as inferior for whatever reasons and purposes. Accepting someone as your equal who assumes you are inferior can be challenging, but sometimes it makes the strongest case for equality.
It is possible, but the goals should really be agreed upon. That is, the meaning of life. Mr. Wing has basically said that detachment is the key to satisfaction, which even most NTs disagree with. Oh, I also don't know why Wing argues for NT superiority, as opposed to ISTJ superiority. Of course I could be wrong, but how often does that happen?
 

bronte

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Accepting someone as your equal who assumes you are inferior can be challenging, but sometimes it makes the strongest case for equality.


We should start an MBTI anti-oppressive practice thread!
 

SolitaryWalker

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Bluewing: You seemed by your numerous requests for me to elaborate on what I was saying either to be having difficulty in comprehending me, or to have a real wish for me to analyse your hypothesis in more detail. If you would like me to show you in more detail how your argument is flawed by your subjectivity and emotiveness, I would be delighted to do so on another thread in a more appropriate location, such as the phillosophy or psycholgy sub-forums. I am not going to do so further on this thread, however, as it has recieved far too much attention already and has become hijacked by discussion of your hypothesis since you posted. Please set up a thread for this purpose, inform me of it, and restate your original premise, and I would be happy to discuss ithe subject with you further.

So far I have seen nothing from you but conclusions. It is doubtful that you even understand my posts.
 
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