[MBTI General] short rant on NFs

[violaine]

I hate this thread, lol. I fell for it too once upon a time.

 

[BlackCat]

This one, misinformed person has an opinion. No need to get all defensive about NFs. We all know that NFs are good people. Anyone can be unhealthy and do any of those things the OP listed.

 

[lane777]

This one, misinformed person has an opinion. No need to get all defensive about NFs. We all know that NFs are good people. Anyone can be unhealthy and do any of those things the OP listed.

Our rebuttal was addressed soley to Sakurba, not the 'informed'.

 

[BlueScreen]

How serious are we supposed to take this? Anyway... Spelling corrections and minor punctuation corrections are in bold. Considering your level of effort, I didn't bother aiding your grammatical errors under the premise it could be poetic license.

Best of luck with your aimless querulous pot-stirring.

Not to be too picky... but try not to judge on things like this. Reasons for poor spelling can be anything from having English as a second language to growing up in a less well off area, or he might've just been tired and annoyed and not placed spelling at the top of the list when having a rant.

Obviously, we are decently stirred up by the initial message, but I don't think spelling is an area that is fair to judge his message on; Communication has obviously occurred without misinterpretation. And his skills in that area are quite sufficient.

What in hell did YOU do to the NF? Most NFs are very aware of emotional injustice/unkindness and will not be happy about it. If you have prompted an NF to do the runner...they are probably...running...for...a...reason...

I agree quite strongly with this. If an NF dissed you, the best thing is start looking at yourself and figuring out what you did.

 

[iwakar]

I hate this thread, lol. I fell for it too once upon a time.

Word.

 

[sarah]

Ahahahahhaha!

Dude, I've taken conflict resolution and 'communication' classes and I'll have you know, that's what you are SUPPOSED to say!

Hahahahaha.

BTW, it's actually part of an overall validation tactic. Your feelings are valid, my feelings are valid, we're all valid. It's a happy flippin' world! I don't things those sentences in themselves are invalidating, but tone and context color in the rest....

Um, did you actually pay for those "conflict resolution" classes?

If you've become aware that someone's misinterpreted you or took offense when you didn't mean to cause any, wouldn't it be simpler to just correct their misperception by saying, "Oh no, I hear you're upset because of what I said. Let me explain myself... " If I were the offended person, I'd rather someone tell me frankly "no offense meant" than listen to them pretend to "acknowledge" my feelings without really fixing the cause of the feelings. A non- apology means nothing to the other person (other than irritating him or her even more), whereas you could ask them what they thought you said and then gently explain what you really meant, and totally avoid saying "I'm sorry" if you really think there was nothing to be sorry about. Right?

Sarah

 

[Kestrel]

If you've become aware that someone's misinterpreted you or took offense when you didn't mean to cause any, wouldn't it be simpler to just correct their misperception by saying, "Oh no, I hear you're upset because of what I said. Let me explain myself... " If I were the offended person, I'd rather someone tell me frankly "no offense meant" than listen to them pretend to "acknowledge" my feelings without really fixing the cause of the feelings. A non- apology means nothing to the other person (other than irritating him or her even more), whereas you could ask them what they thought you said and then gently explain what you really meant, and totally avoid saying "I'm sorry" if you really think there was nothing to be sorry about. Right?

Sarah

Um, wow. Right on the money. I find that if someone is sitting there talking to me about "my" feelings, it's belittling. I've found that if you're dealing with conflict and someone is upset, the best thing to do is step back and listen first, THEN find out what needs to be addressed and how they want it resolved. It's hard as hell, especially as an F, to put on a T mask sometimes, but I've done it. And it works!

 

[ragashree]

I hate this thread, lol. I fell for it too once upon a time.

Lol

I think the OP was actually a really clever peice of trolling, particularly taking into account its target audience. The things he levelled his hyperbolized general criticisms at NF's for doing are, I suspect, not so much the things that those who share that type are generally prone to do as the things that they are most afraid of in themselves and would feel most guilty about actually doing. Selfishness, narcississm, disloyalty, emotional lability, insincerity, superficiality, hypocrisy, dependency... they're all there. All the things that pretty much each and every NF spends his or her whole life striving to be anything but, all NF's are accused with one sweeping, unsubstantiated statement of actually being. The sad thing is that so many people felt insecure enough in themselves to allow their buttons to be pressed by this manipulative guilt-tripping trick, and actually strove to give him a serious response. I very much doubt Sakuraba really believed what he was saying when he posted this topic - he is primarily playing mind games, and anyone who is drawn into trying to justify or explain themselves, at least in direct response to the OP, is being suckered into those games.

*sighs*

 

[lane777]

Lol

I think the OP was actually a really clever peice of trolling, particularly taking into account its target audience. The things he levelled his hyperbolized general criticisms at NF's for doing are, I suspect, not so much the things that those who share that type are generally prone to do as the things that they are most afraid of in themselves and would feel most guilty about actually doing. Selfishness, narcississm, disloyalty, emotional lability, insincerity, superficiality, hypocrisy, dependency... they're all there. All the things that pretty much each and every NF spends his or her whole life striving to be anything but, all NF's are accused with one sweeping, unsubstantiated statement of actually being. The sad thing is that so many people felt insecure enough in themselves to allow their buttons to be pressed by this manipulative guilt-tripping trick, and actually strove to give him a serious response. I very much doubt Sakuraba really believed what he was saying when he posted this topic - he is primarily playing mind games, and anyone who is drawn into trying to justify or explain themselves, at least in direct response to the OP, is being suckered into those games.

*sighs*

Interesting perspective, although to assume everyone who respounds to Sakuraba is insecure seems narrow minded to me. In my case, I was motivated to change his opinion simply because prejudiced attitudes are ugly and unwarranted.

Anyways, it doesn't bother me to discover that he was staging a retaliation. I find it rather clever and amusing. (dick)

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I believe that all of sakuraba's central claims are sound and would be satisfactory if they were rendered complete. Those who protest are either hypocrites who do not wish to hear the truth about themselves or lack the analytical faculties necessary to properly understand his opening post. Both cases are unremarkable in this thread as we notice NFs were the ones who protested the most, and it is quite persuasive that because they tend not to be talented at logical reasoning, they would lack the analytical faculties necessary to understand the OP. It is also persuasive that NFs will not wish to hear the truth about themselves because they lack the ability to approach remarks about themselves from an objective standpoint, and that is precisely why they respond cantankerously to those who criticize them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definitions.

Thinking: Faculty of logical reasoning. Evinces structure in all designs.

Feeling: An emotive valuation, manifests as either a pleasant feeling or unpleasant.

Intuition: Mere abstract perception or imagination.

Sensing: Mere utilization of our five senses.

A person who does not use Thinking well cannot have a clear vision of what is going on in his life. This is so because only Thinking can show structure in all things.

A person who relies on Feeling very heavily and supresses Thinking in effect, merely has confused notions about what to do with their lives, yet notions that they feel very strongly about. Reasons for this are rarely justified because such a person's logical reasoning skills are poor. This is common among NFs.

NFs are also often divorced from their Sensing faculty, this means that not only is their judgment inadequate (lack of Thinking) but also information they have collected may easily be diluted by their imaginations.

Without Sensation or Thinking, they could be divorced from reality, simply believe in whatever they'd like to believe.

Obviously we all wish to feel well and we unconsciously are attracted to all ideas that make us feel good about ourselves. NFs tend not to have disciplined minds as they are out of touch with their logical reasoning faculties and their sensations, therefore they could easily convince themselves that anything they would like to believe in is true.

Are NF's loyal? IME... No. They are flighty. Never have their priorities straight.".

This is absolutely right, as I have established earlier, their minds are not disciplined because they cannot structure their own thinking, so they cannot possibly have their priorities straight as they know not what they think or what they do.

Would an SF be any better at setting his priorities straight than an NF? His logical reasoning skills certainly cannot be expected to be much better than that of an NF, however, his Sensing faculty brings him down to earth. It focuses him on the here and now and therefore on his immediate concerns. An SF does not need to have superb logical reasoning skills to make good decisions as the problems he will have to solve will be very easy. An NF on the other hand, easily confuses himself by all the things he may imagine about his situation that are truly not relevant to his situation.

Hence, an SF can set his priorities straight, whilst an NF, not as easily.

For people who are so "people-orientated" a lot of them dont have many close friends. .".

They generally lack close friends because they are flighty. It is difficult for other people to tolerate their erratic ways. SFs on the other hand tend to be very predictable and people oriented, but they do often have close friends.

Being intensely people oriented may lead one to have one relational vice, namely, clinginess, but in most cases this is not a significant defect because most people people oriented persons pursue relationships with tend not to value autonomy significantly. Unless one values autonomy, one has no reason to see clingyness as disturbing.

NFs are so wrapped up in themselves. I think they are the most selfish people out there. Ever talk to an NF on the phone? Garauntee the conversation will always find a way back to the NF's favorite topic.... themself. .".

Their divorce from reality makes it close to impossible for them to understand the importance of focusing on topics other than themselves, and quite naturally, as we all tend to, they focus almost exclusively on themselves. People who are less divorced from reality are able to see the reasons for avoiding being self-absorbed, yet NFs are not.

[These are the type of people... You could save their life one day. And they next day they would end your friendship because they need to "find themself and start over".

Because their minds are undisciplined and they lack common-sense, they could easily shift from one perspective regarding how to live their lives to another. What they could do stretches as far as their imagination allows them to. They lack the sensing faculties which prevents them from being grounded in the real world, and they also lack the Thinking faculties which prevents them from properly making sense of their ideas regarding how they should live their lives.

This goes back to the earlier problem of 'flightiness' you mentioned in the beginning of your post.

 

[ragashree]

Interesting perspective, although to assume everyone who respounds to Sakuraba is insecure seems narrow minded to me. In my case, I was motivated to change his opinion simply because prejudiced attitudes are ugly and unwarranted.

Anyways, it doesn't bother me to discover that he was staging a retaliation. I find it rather clever and amusing. (dick)

Well, everyone surely has insecurities (including me I'm not in raging denial) so it would be pretty silly of me to actually criticise anyone for that, and I wasn't aiming to. My point was more that he seemed to have found a good way to play specifically on some common NF ones. The post certainly seemed to upset a lot of people: I find it hard to discern any other intent. The bit I bolded is unfortunately quite an easy trap for NFs to fall into as well - the desire to make the world a better place for all. The only kind of prejudice that can be sucessfully redressed by education is that which stems from pure ignorance. It may be the commonest kind, but there is also at least one more kind - that which comes from someone wanting to assert their individuality, of striking an attitude to make them stand out from the crowd by going against the prevailing view. As this attitude is not so much a result of ignorance, but a conscious choice by the person who makes it, I don't think that any form of argument or explanation is going to make them change their minds. It's more likely to confirm them in the belief that their contrary views are actually serving a useful purpose.

 

[Neo Genesis]

I believe that all of sakuraba's central claims are sound and would be satisfactory if they were rendered complete.

LOL of course you would BW.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

This one, misinformed person has an opinion. No need to get all defensive about NFs. We all know that NFs are good people. Anyone can be unhealthy and do any of those things the OP listed.

Very few exceptional NFs are good people, most are not. Most just feel that they have virtue when they truly do not. This is merely their self-deception.

 

[Jack Flak]

Very few exceptional NFs are good people, most are not. Most just feel that they have virtue when they truly do not. This is merely their self-deception.

Well, that can be true. Kind of like when someone considers himself "Too smart to be ISTJ."

 

[ragashree]

I believe that all of sakuraba's central claims are sound and would be satisfactory if they were rendered complete. Those who protest are either hypocrites who do not wish to hear the truth about themselves or lack the analytical faculties necessary to properly understand his opening post. Both cases are unremarkable in this thread as we notice NFs were the ones who protested the most, and it is quite persuasive that because they tend not to be talented at logical reasoning, they would lack the analytical faculties necessary to understand the OP. It is also persuasive that NFs will not wish to hear the truth about themselves because they lack the ability to approach remarks about themselves from an objective standpoint, and that is precisely why they respond cantankerously to those who criticize them.

Bluewing, you are committing the somewhat converse error of seeing the MBTI not as a somewhat imperfect, but useful model for understanding reality, but as something that is complete in itself. Then you analyse certain type functions, detatched from the human context which give them their significance, to their ultimate logical conclusions. The conclusions, however, are now so decontextualised that they bear little - I will not say no, as there is a certain amount of truth in there, but little relationship to the way in which people actually operate. You appear to be basing your whole chain of reasoning on an unacknowledged subjective belief of your own: that NF's are poor at abstract reasoning and incapable of being objective (In bold). This would only be correct if the functions a person had access to correlated strictly to the major processes expressed in their type, and was in practice limited to those. This is simply not the case; any one person has access to the full range of cognitive functions possible, as described by MBTI. In MBTI terms it is an indicator of maturity in an individual when they have developed their inferior functions to the degree where they are able to use them appropriately, according to circumstance; though their cognitive preference - the trait which the MBTI classifies, may indeed remain as it is. You have typed yourself as INTP - I can believe that, as a core weakness of the natural INTP process is often in data collection, where insufficient focus on obtaining accurate information through perceptive Ni may result in formulating a theory that though logically sound in itself, is lacking in external applicability through omission of key data. I would suggest going back to the drawing board on this one rather than continuing trying to view everything through the distorting prism of MBTI type ALONE.

 

[Simplexity]

Well, that can be true. Kind of like when someone considers himself "Too smart to be ISTJ."

Or "Too introverted" to be ENTP...

 

[Jack Flak]

Or "Too introverted" to be ENTP...

Oh, but you see, you err. Because if one is indeed too introverted to be ENTP, they are not. But the concept of too smart to be ISTJ doesn't compute, or follow.

 

[Simplexity]

Oh, but you see, you err. Because if one is indeed too introverted to be ENTP, they are not. But the concept of too smart to be ISTJ doesn't compute, or follow.

This logical gymnastics is too complex and difficult for my ISFP mind to handle...

 

[Jack Flak]

This logical gymnastics is too complex and difficult for my ISFP mind to handle...

Fear not, my friend, for you are not alone among any and all types. I shall handle the matter completely, from here on out.

 

[am_i_evil666]

Very few exceptional NFs are good people, most are not. Most just feel that they have virtue when they truly do not. This is merely their self-deception.

What??? WHat does "good people" mean to you?