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  1. #51
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Jack and substitute, I find myself agreeing with you for the most part. It's not that I haven't received the same type of apologies from other types, it's that when I'm dealing with NFs I expect them. Our rudeness can become attached to our values and character, making it rather difficult to deal with the issue directly.

    I've not only had to deal with it, but I was often guilty of this myself until I was able to start working on fixing it.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Forums are different because I can't perceive the tone of voice. But in RL I look askance at "I was only making a joke" kind of stuff. Especially if a person repeatedly does it and if the "jokes" cut too deep for light humor. Like, "I hope your grandma dies!" (I'm immune to that particular one. It hurts in grade school, though.)

    Gotta know someone sometimes tell the difference.

    I don't know about other NFs but, if I like someone and want to be friends, I tend to look at what I think are flaws as "What it is, is what it is."
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I don't know about other NFs but, if I like someone and want to be friends, I tend to look at what I think are flaws as "What it is, is what it is."
    Well I'm NT, but that's exactly my stance as well. I'm extremely "Come as you are," if I'm inviting you at all. And I appreciate the differences--they are the essence of interesting relationships.

    The philosophy may have a loose correlation to some types, but I think it's more wisdom based.

  4. #54
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Rationalizing bad behavior is an NF thing? NFs are somehow better at it? Humans rationalize bad behavior. It's theoretically conceivable that an NF with Fi may use morality to do it (although I've never seen anyone do this... perhaps you should give me an example of it). That doesn't in any way raise the stature of this thread above bitter rant. I also hope your own baggage hasn't led you make such vast generalizations, or so-called tenedncies that embrace INFPs, ENFPs, INFJs, and ENFJs.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Points:

    1. Everything I've posted (or will post) in this thread has been generalization with consideration to both groups of people and tendencies. I'm often misunderstood as saying things "are..." as opposed to saying things "often tend to be..." It's the latter.
    Check out the bold/italic/underlined portion. You weren't misunderstood.

    2. It is also primarily detached, abstract analysis in the INTP style. The analysis is its own goal. I might as well be discussing a mental creation as actual people.
    As a P, I can go with that.

    3. I would say NFs have less of a need to rationalize than others. To use function terminology, their dominant judging function is Feeling, so if something strikes the NF as right, it will likely forever be considered to be right. There is less of a felt need to make excuses for actions. SFs tend to be less influenced by the concept of chasing ideals, and therefore show dissimilar inclination here.
    If by "feel" you mean see whether or not an action fits into your value-system, then kudos. Otherwise, you're probably confusing Feeling and feeling.

    For my own clarification, are you assuming that
    A) NFs are behaving badly because their F tells them to. IOW they genuinely believe they're doing the correct, morally just thing.
    B) They're repressing their F function. This is something you could theoretically attribute to ENFPs or INFJs simply because feeling is not their dominant function (thus easier to ignore).
    C) It's self-delusion. IOW, they're manipulating their F function to justify what they want to do. (similar to repression except you're corrupting the F instead of ignoring it)

    I ask because when you say Fs don't TEND to need to justify their behavior, you're suggesting repression. However, then you say in point 5:
    5. All types can demonstrate behavior similar to this. As stated earlier, it is the method of justification which is somewhat unique.
    and supporting point 5 is your example in point 4 where:
    They have followed their heart, and feel justified in doing so, which leads to...
    (where "followed their heart" is the justification. Iow, they value following one's heart)

    Those are in conflict, so I'm confused.

  5. #55
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I'm grabbing Phoenix's boobs right now. Feelers.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I'm grabbing Phoenix's boobs right now. Feelers.
    Guiltlessly, naturally.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    If by "feel" you mean see whether or not an action fits into your value-system, then kudos.
    Precisely.
    For my own clarification, are you assuming that
    A) NFs are behaving badly because their F tells them to. IOW they genuinely believe they're doing the correct, morally just thing.
    B) They're repressing their F function. This is something you could theoretically attribute to ENFPs or INFJs simply because feeling is not their dominant function (thus easier to ignore).
    C) It's self-delusion. IOW, they're manipulating their F function to justify what they want to do. (similar to repression except you're corrupting the F instead of ignoring it)
    A, primarily. But I refer to not just "bad" behavior but all behavior.

    I ask because when you say Fs don't TEND to need to justify their behavior, you're suggesting repression. However, then you say in point 5:

    and supporting point 5 is your example in point 4 where:
    (where "followed their heart" is the justification. Iow, they value following one's heart)

    Those are in conflict, so I'm confused.
    Repression is the last thing I had in mind. It is the full acceptance of the Feeling judgments as truth.

  8. #58
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Precisely.

    A, primarily. But I refer to not just "bad" behavior but all behavior.


    Repression is the last thing I had in mind. It is the full acceptance of the Feeling judgments as truth.
    WOAH WOAH WOAH! You've just blown me away, Mr. Flak! So the Feeling judgements are unreliable in decisions involving people, and cause them to be flaky...

    I can see "the full acceptance of the Feeling judgments as truth" being an issue with holding opinions with no fact to back them up... but as for flaking out on your friend and all the stuff OP talked about...? What "feeler" won't have PEOPLE as a high value? It's getting late, and I don't know if you actually care to pursue this, but I still don't understand where this "observed trend" is coming from. Perhaps you could give me specific observations/examples from your life or find some other way to explain it...sheesh.

    Note: I tend to sound outraged and super-invested when arguing or debating things. I'm not... just really excited.

  9. #59
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Holy necromancy, Batman!
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #60
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    What she said.

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