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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    Your opinions are often provided with in depth analysis and argument, which is very admirable. Your sarcastic tone, however is a sign of deficiency with feeling and arrogance. To function in the world and progress efficiently, T's must learn to understand and overcome their F weaknesses as much as possible and vice versa for Fs, like what Amargith said its much like a different language. Thinking has it flaws, it can prove ruthless and inconsiderate if devoid of feeling. This can prove a problem for Ti, since its subjective logic and has inferior Fe. This isn't to say feeling doesn't have issues, it can be problematic when it becomes too narcissistic and begins to placate or control overs due to insecurities.
    The sarcastic tone is a sign of NP humour. It was playful rather than ignorant and I was quite enjoying it . I'm guessing it is a common NP thing at least, maybe humour is type free.
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  2. #132
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    Your This can prove a problem for Ti, since its subjective logic and has inferior Fe. .
    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    This isn't to say feeling doesn't have issues, it can be problematic when it becomes too narcissistic and begins to placate or control overs due to insecurities.

    Logic, by definition is completely objective. Sometimes the term 'subjective logic' is mistakenly used to depict Introverted Thinking. What is meant by this is that Thinking in the case of Introverted Thinking is inspired internally or by subjective data. An example of this would be a mathematician inspired to analyze a problem by an abstract vision of the problem he has conceived in his mind. This is one reason the INTP type tends to be in close affinity with intellectual disciplines that require abstract reasoning first and foremost.

    This approach to Thinking contrasts with that of Extroverted Thinking, in the latter case thinking is inspired strictly by an external agenda. A classical example of this is a businessman trying to solve a problem that directly involves his business, or a general trying to win the battle that his external circumstances are profoundly influenced by. For this reason Extroverted Thinking is best known for implementation of ideas rather than their conception, and vice versa holds true for the Introverted Thinker for reasons mentioned in the first paragraph.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is indeed the case that the Thinking types tend not to be talented at the use of their Feeling faculty and because of this often lack skills associated with a competent use of Feeling. It is also true, as you mention that this leads to a callous attitude. This obviously means that the Thinking type has difficulties of his own, but they are clearly less severe than that of the Feeling type. A person who lacks Thinking skills simply lacks structure in their worldview. Such a person will have only a very fuzzy idea of who they are and how they should live their life. This is the problem of flightiness that sakuraba mentioned in the OP. The negative consequences of callousness are obviously much less severe, as callousness leads to nothing nearly as deleterious as a situation where one lacks a sense of purpose in life as well as a clear sense of self.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #133
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^ Logic is only as objective as the person's state of mind, IME (Lawyers for instance, are very able to argue a case 'logically' depending on what suits them)

    But aside from that, you are missing vital data in order to reach your conclusions, which means that your conclusions by default are somewhat limited if not completely incorrect.
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The problem is their lack of attunement with the Thinking function which leads to errors associated with faulty use of that faculty.

    But in any case, try not to think too much about it. Sleep it off, you'll feel differently then, and when you feel differently, obviously your whole world will change. Just dont worry okay? Its all a matter of feel anyways!
    Don't worry for me, please. Anyhow, I'll be unable to "sleep it off" as i have tons of things to do, and unfortunately, not too much time.

    Buh-bye, have fun! It's just you and your hand tonight!

  5. #135
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    NFs are neither good or bad people by nature. If it is a reliable category to discuss, it is at best a fuzzy group of people who share similar cognitive processes applied to different goals. They share something in the method of thinking when perceiving, problem solving, and acting in the world. The content of that is as varied as it is for any MBTI category. It is unfortunate to get hurt enough by someone to express it like it is in the opening post. At the time it can make sense to categorize the problem person and then project those traits onto a whole category of unknown people in hopes of avoiding a repeat of the unpleasant interaction. Unfortunately it isn't going to work for a couple of reasons: 1. MBTI does not apply to all people perfectly. It has some interesting insights, but it is far from fail-proof. It isn't science. 2. Even if it were reliable, applying it in a prejudicial way will not have reliable results. The person in the OP along with all of us who use prejudice as a way to protect ourselves from harm from others, it doesn't work. We are guaranteed to get hurt again.
    Of course MBTI isnt full proof, no system is fool proof.

    Though Jung has established some very basic axioms of human nature.

    Axiom:Everyone rationalizes (Thinking), everyone has an imagination (Intuition), everyone is attuned with the 5 senses (Sensation) and everyone processes emotion (Feeling). Some of these faculties are conscious (Judging) and others are unconscious( Perceiving). Some of these prompt us to attain a perspective (Judging) others prompt us to merely interact with our external environment on an unconscious level (Perception). They countervail each other because one insists on conscious action, whilst the other insists on postponing action in order to unconsciously interact with the external environment, or simply to take it all in.

    Proposition:Thinking and Feeling are antithetical because one insists on a dispassionate approach to judgment and the other insists on an impassioned one. Intuition and Sensation are antithetical also because one insists on attunement with what is sensed, or one particular observation, whilst the other insists on freedom to explore all things that concern the imagination. One set of faculties must be more influential than the other because we notice antithesis between many of the aforementioned faculties. If they were equally as influential one would not be able to function at all as one would be too conflicted about even the most basic of tasks, such as how to observe what is around us and how to make a trivial decision.

    From our axiom we derive the notion of type, or existence of specific cognitive functions. From our proposition we derive the notion of temperament, which is an aggregate of types. The order in which the types or functions are arranged specifies to what degree they are influential within one's psyche. A particular temperament is defined specifically by how influential each set of functions is. For example, the most characteristic quality of the INTP temperament is the significant influence of functions of Thinking and Intuition, and respectively, because Thinking and Intuition countervail Sensation and Feeling, insignificant influence of Sensation and Feeling.
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  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    The sarcastic tone is a sign of NP humour. It was playful rather than ignorant and I was quite enjoying it . I'm guessing it is a common NP thing at least, maybe humour is type free.
    If that is the case, that is fine and I admit its an error in my judgement. I should've taken it with more humour.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Logic, by definition is completely objective. Sometimes the term 'subjective logic' is mistakenly used to depict Introverted Thinking. What is meant by this is that Thinking in the case of Introverted Thinking is inspired internally or by subjective data. An example of this would be a mathematician inspired to analyze a problem by an abstract vision of the problem he has conceived in his mind. This is one reason the INTP type tends to be in close affinity with intellectual disciplines that require abstract reasoning first and foremost.

    This approach to Thinking contrasts with that of Extroverted Thinking, in the latter case thinking is inspired strictly by an external agenda. A classical example of this is a businessman trying to solve a problem that directly involves his business, or a general trying to win the battle that his external circumstances are profoundly influenced by. For this reason Extroverted Thinking is best known for implementation of ideas rather than their conception, and vice versa holds true for the Introverted Thinker for reasons mentioned in the first paragraph.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is indeed the case that the Thinking types tend not to be talented at the use of their Feeling faculty and because of this often lack skills associated with a competent use of Feeling. It is also true, as you mention that this leads to a callous attitude. This obviously means that the Thinking type has difficulties of his own, but they are clearly less severe than that of the Feeling type. A person who lacks Thinking skills simply lacks structure in their worldview. Such a person will have only a very fuzzy idea of who they are and how they should live their life. This is the problem of flightiness that sakuraba mentioned in the OP. The negative consequences of callousness are obviously much less severe, as callousness leads to nothing nearly as deleterious as a situation where one lacks a sense of purpose in life as well as a clear sense of self.

    Logic is the most objective concept that humans have approximated. Logic efficiently utilised in maths, is hardly falsified, that is correct, but the person utilising its logical variant in understanding human tendencies, is not as efficient in its usage, since human nature is not as accurately quantifiable as say maths. A person's subjective experiences in life, limit the use of logic because of constraint by time in history, culture, family, peers, nature to name some. Imperfections, in this regard have to be accepted, otherwise effective critique in logic can be hindered and contextual understanding of MBTI in the remit of other thought, which would hinder precision and refinement. Taking an absolutionist approach to the perfection of one's logical perception, will cause a slow down, in taking into account more subtle methodological critques of one's perspective. There is difference in acknowledgment and proactively critiquing one's absolutionist approach.

    Your point is valid, when taking in various assumed variables about the internal and external world. It depends on what environment the Thinker or Feeler is trying to progress in, if there is heavy focus on a value system and social cohesion, there can be situations, where the thinker can potentailly suffer from his or her feeling deficiencies. Also this is under the assumption, that the "purpose" you describe is of an equal race end, between thinkers and feelers. Thinkers may have a solid purpose, while NFs, being of the idealist quandrant have a similarly hypothetical equivalent of "purpose", but are perfectionists, so want further refinement, this can cause a relative slowdown true, however the irrational function of NF, may cause them to work harder once that purpose is obtained, than the logics of a thinker would, causing societal progress i.e Martin Luther King, Gandhi, to mention the prominent ones or at least arbitary self gain, which is considered a bad thing for some. All humans are selfish though in some manner, it varies, overlaps and is a lot down to perception.

    The clear sense of self issue, is a drawback, individual's emotions are hard to measure objectively, posing more difficulty in the one that has more prominent usage in it, that is fair. I have no objection that Ti/Te users would be at a natural advantage in impersonal analysis generally and the difference you explained between Ti conceptual advantage and Te implementation advantage.

    Btw, I find your opinions very interesting and thought provoking, even if I don't agree with everything, there aren't many that contribute so much in their posts.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post

    Would an SF be any better at setting his priorities straight than an NF? His logical reasoning skills certainly cannot be expected to be much better than that of an NF, however, his Sensing faculty brings him down to earth. It focuses him on the here and now and therefore on his immediate concerns. An SF does not need to have superb logical reasoning skills to make good decisions as the problems he will have to solve will be very easy. An NF on the other hand, easily confuses himself by all the things he may imagine about his situation that are truly not relevant to his situation.

    Hence, an SF can set his priorities straight, whilst an NF, not as easily.

    I generally find your posts to be informative, from a logical standpoint. But it's pretty clear you have a strong bias in favor of T over F.

    Who defines what these "priorities" are? For an NF, feeling good involves making sure others are also feeling good. Perhaps this is not a logical priority, but it is still a priority.

    Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that you don't quite understand NF's because you're trying to logically analyze them. Since your priorities are based upon efficiency and utility, it's not surprising you would see NF's as flighty, unstructured, and undisciplined. But be aware that your NT inclinations are filtering your perspective of reality. Objectivity here is limited.
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  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    But it's pretty clear you have a strong bias in favor of T over F.
    And also N over S. Actually he has a strong bias in favor of himself over anyone else.

  9. #139
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Bluewing, you are committing the somewhat converse error of seeing the MBTI not as a somewhat imperfect, but useful model for understanding reality, but as something that is complete in itself. Then you analyse certain type functions, detatched from the human context which give them their significance, to their ultimate logical conclusions. The conclusions, however, are now so decontextualised that they bear little - I will not say no, as there is a certain amount of truth in there, but little relationship to the way in which people actually operate. You appear to be basing your whole chain of reasoning on an unacknowledged subjective belief of your own: that NF's are poor at abstract reasoning and incapable of being objective (In bold). This would only be correct if the functions a person had access to correlated strictly to the major processes expressed in their type, and was in practice limited to those. This is simply not the case; any one person has access to the full range of cognitive functions possible, as described by MBTI. In MBTI terms it is an indicator of maturity in an individual when they have developed their inferior functions to the degree where they are able to use them appropriately, according to circumstance; though their cognitive preference - the trait which the MBTI classifies, may indeed remain as it is. You have typed yourself as INTP - I can believe that, as a core weakness of the natural INTP process is often in data collection, where insufficient focus on obtaining accurate information through perceptive Ni may result in formulating a theory that though logically sound in itself, is lacking in external applicability through omission of key data. I would suggest going back to the drawing board on this one rather than continuing trying to view everything through the distorting prism of MBTI type ALONE.
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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Actually he has a strong bias in favor of himself over anyone else.
    You have put the dot on the I.

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