[MBTI General] Fs are dishonest to spare feelings Js are brutally honest Y or N

[DiscoBiscuit]

Oh, yeah; me, too--I can relate to that whole shebang. When I'm in a cheerful mood, it's easier for me to "fake" or at least exaggerate a positive attitude toward other people.

Is it right? Maybe not, but here's some balls-out truth: a bit of 'politicking' is kinda necessary in this world.

I try my damndest not to do so with the people who are at all close to me, but sometimes it's inevitable. "I'm fine" is a way for me to say "I'm still processing something negative and I'd rather you not pry, thanks!" But often they end up picking up that that's what "I'm fine" means--or, even better, I can just outright state the latter because I can eventually trust that they actually won't pry. Wow, amazing!

That's why I have such a land mine disposition around here sometimes. If you brighten my day I'll let you know with a positive response. I'm not going to try to make you think you had more of a positive effect on me than you did.

This is one of the places I can try to be completely honest with myself, and I figure I might as well be honest with you as well.

 

[CrystalViolet]

I make it a policy of mine not to lie, but who's to say my truth is more valid than your truth. Some times it's better to say nothing at all, then disengage brain and engage mouth.

 

[Laurie]

Also, there are usually ways to be diplomatic, which is typically a more effective way to communicate the same damn message.

This is really the crux of the matter.

 

[Istbkleta]

I think the OP is spot on.

Hence the shit storm.

 

[garbage]

Wait, we've been talking about how Fs are dishonest because they spare feelings. We haven't addressed the other half of the topic: that Js are brutally honest.

Soo.. what about FJs? Are they just a logical contradiction?

If so, then the T/F and J/P axes are not independent, and therefore the system itself has an obvious glaring flaw and is internally inconsistent--so the OP constructed upon an illogical foundation. QED, or something.

 

[Lexicon]

Is this about right?

BTW most people dont like me especially Fs because I let it fly as a public service because I think its noble to speak the unfettered truth.

It is not received well. This frustrates me. I have been thick about it but bullshitting for the sake of feelings seems so insulting and disrepsectful.

This is my quandry.

Does anyone feel for me or am I just another unfeeling bastard in your opinion?

I suppose FJ's are the contradiction to the rule here.

We can give the truth in an honest way that is diplomatic and actually comprehended by the person we're trying to communicate with. It's like, why else are you sharing the information? You do wish to actually have your information resonate, correct? I'd hope so, otherwise you're merely talking at people and assaulting them with words..

 

[Thalassa]

No. I think Fe users are more likely to twist the truth to spare people's feelings. But people of various types could lie for other reasons, like Se and Te users probably lie for their own advantage, for example. Not as as general rule, but that would be more of an Se or Te motive to lie. It would be an Fe motive to lie to spare feelings or manipulate relationships to a strong degree.

Then Te users are often brutally honest. But then again STPs tend to be as well, so following this logic Se would also be brutally honest, making ESFPs and ENTJs some of the most brutal people on the face of the earth, potentially.

Hey that actually makes sense because I can really be brutal sometimes, but because I have Fi before Te it softens it, so it only happens sometimes.

It's definitely not an F or J thing.

 

[Thalassa]

I suppose FJ's are the contradiction to the rule here.

We can give the truth in an honest way that is diplomatic and actually comprehended by the person we're trying to communicate with. It's like, why else are you sharing the information? You do wish to actually have your information resonate, correct? I'd hope so, otherwise you're merely talking at people and assaulting them with words..

I think this is definitely a talent of Fe users who are intelligent and ethical enough to reason out to not lie, but to be honest with the most effective and harmonious communication possible.

Not all FJs though. I do think some FJs do just say "yes that dress looks great on you" just so you won't be hurt. My ESFJ friend has admitted even if she thinks things she won't say them, like if she thinks something looks bad, she will actually let someone leave the house with it on, but tell them later after they take it off. Which to me is like WTF, that's mean, but in her mind it's kinder to share such information when the person isn't actually wearing the item, for example. Her ISTP son also says that she will "say anything" looks good.

She's very intelligent too, I just don't think it's part of her ethical value system to be brutally honest with tact in every situation, but I can definitely see this with other FJs I've encountered.

And I think my ESFJ ex used to just lie his ass off sometimes, unless he felt like twisting the knife into someone, and then would talk about them behind their backs to me or his mom.

 

[Lexicon]

I think this is definitely a talent of Fe users who are intelligent and ethical enough to reason out to not lie, but to be honest with the most effective and harmonious communication possible.

Not all FJs though. I do think some FJs do just say "yes that dress looks great on you" just so you won't be hurt. My ESFJ friend has admitted even if she thinks things she won't say them, like if she thinks something looks bad, she will actually let someone leave the house with it on, but tell them later after they take it off. Which to me is like WTF, that's mean, but in her mind it's kinder to share such information when the person isn't actually wearing the item, for example. Her ISTP son also says that she will "say anything" looks good.

She's very intelligent too, I just don't think it's part of her ethical value system to be brutally honest with tact in every situation, but I can definitely see this with other FJs I've encountered.

And I think my ESFJ ex used to just lie his ass off sometimes, unless he felt like twisting the knife into someone, and then would talk about them behind their backs to me or his mom.

Yeah, I was overgeneralizing, haha. biased.

 

[Forever_Jung]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htVkGx4_GqA"]The Truth[/YOUTUBE]

I'm tired of these: I-tell-it-like-it-is-people, who seem to think that they are on a reality show or something.

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah, I was overgeneralizing, haha. biased.

Ha ha...I do that too.

I mean I think my ESFJ friend does tell the truth tactfully...if she actually values you, and she can encounter you when you're not saying or doing that thing.

Like IRL I don't wear make-up every day. And when I do, you guys have seen how white I look in many of my photos...and she put a stop to that.

One day when I was make-up free she said to me "you know, you have a nice color, you're not that white." I was like what? She was like "...your foundation. I think you have a medium skin tone. I don't know if you think you are whiter, or that whiter is pretty, but you have such nice color and you hide it." And I told her I was self-conscious about having a red undertone, and aside from the red undertone that I was pretty pale. And she said actually no you're not that pale, see? And she gave me some of her foundation.

She was totally right.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It made me think of this quote from a while back, "Always question authority, especially YOUR OWN."

Honestly, people who are convinced they have some superior edge on the truth, or that their truth must be everyones truth just irritate the shit out of me.

Also, brutal honesty is usually not Truth but truth relative and subjective to one's perspective. I usually find it laughable when people say, "I am just being brutally honest" like they are the definitive source of all things true.

These are well said. The "unfettered truth" referred to in the OP is something that many people never stop to consider - that when someone asks the proverbial question, "Do I look fat?" that the answer is everything from "absolutely" to "not at all". The question, "Is my weight unhealthy" does have a measurable answer that a doctor can give, but the first question does not have a purely truthful answer. Taking the time to more deeply understand what is being asked, and responding to that is more responsible, insightful, and adult than assuming your interpretation of a question and your perception of a right answer are the only truth, which is infantile.

Why do people think their opinions are truth? I don't get that.

 

[EJCC]

..God, this. It's with the people who outright state that they're "telling it like it is." "Can't handle the truth? Don't hang wit' me!"

Please. Their perspective is as limited as everyone else's; they could stand to be humbled just a teensy little bit.

I get the impression from those people that their comments regarding "brutal honesty" are a defense mechanism; they don't know how to cushion their statements, so they decide to idealize their honesty, to keep themselves from dwelling on the fact that constant "brutal honesty" keeps you from making friends and can leave you pretty much alone in the world. Like so many people who end up as social outcasts because of their own behavior, they decide to tell themselves that their status outside the norm (i.e. the norm of accommodating other people's sensibilities before you speak) makes them better than everyone else.

 

[fripping]

it's just as egotistical to believe you are the grand arbiter of other people's feelings as to believe you are the sole provider of truth. you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, i say. everybody's got their own self-illusions to protect one way or the other.

it's better to say nothing or come as close as you can.

 

[ceecee]

Wait, we've been talking about how Fs are dishonest because they spare feelings. We haven't addressed the other half of the topic: that Js are brutally honest.

Soo.. what about FJs? Are they just a logical contradiction?

If so, then the T/F and J/P axes are not independent, and therefore the system itself has an obvious glaring flaw and is internally inconsistent--so the OP constructed upon an illogical foundation. QED, or something.

The FJ's can be just as brutally honest. The difference is that the FJ will give you a hug afterwards.

 

[Coriolis]

Why do people think their opinions are truth? I don't get that.

My expression of my opinion is the truth, in that I am truthfully representing my opinion about something. If someone asks a subjective question, like whether something makes them look fat, or whether I like the taste of something they cooked, I usually have an opinion one way or another. I can relay that truthfully, lie about it, or decline to answer. I usually won't offer any opinion unsolicited, but if asked, I won't lie. This is what I mean by "truth" in such a situation.

 

[garbage]

The FJ's can be just as brutally honest. The difference is that the FJ will give you a hug afterwards.

Well, there's that, too!

I'm just wondering whether the OP posits that FJs are honest and dishonest at the same time on exactly the same subject. Perhaps they are paradoxical. Or perhaps they're Schrodinger's honest.

That's it. FJs exist as a wave-particle duality.

I get the impression from those people that their comments regarding "brutal honesty" are a defense mechanism; they don't know how to cushion their statements, so they decide to idealize their honesty, to keep themselves from dwelling on the fact that constant "brutal honesty" keeps you from making friends and can leave you pretty much alone in the world. Like so many people who end up as social outcasts because of their own behavior, they decide to tell themselves that their status outside the norm (i.e. the norm of accommodating other people's sensibilities before you speak) makes them better than everyone else.

Pretty much

 

[Coriolis]

Like so many people who end up as social outcasts because of their own behavior, they decide to tell themselves that their status outside the norm (i.e. the norm of accommodating other people's sensibilities before you speak) makes them better than everyone else.

Just how far does this "norm of accommodation" go? It is reasonable to practice common courtesy/civility, but with some people it seems one is walking always on eggshells, which can be incredibly draining as well as inefficient. There has to be some happy medium between being a social outcast and Miss Congeniality. If I idealize anything in this dynamic, it is not so much my honesty as practicality and my sense of self.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

My expression of my opinion is the truth, in that I am truthfully representing my opinion about something. If someone asks a subjective question, like whether something makes them look fat, or whether I like the taste of something they cooked, I usually have an opinion one way or another. I can relay that truthfully, lie about it, or decline to answer. I usually won't offer any opinion unsolicited, but if asked, I won't lie. This is what I mean by "truth" in such a situation.

That makes sense, but what if you have several opinions about subjective topics depending on which vantage point you view it from? I find I sometimes don't have a clear sense of one opinion especially for subjective discussions. I do have some strong opinions about topics that can be more readily verified outside the context of myself. If there is external data demonstrating certain facts, it bothers me when either myself or others disregard this. When it comes to my opinion on the appearance of others, or whether or not they have done something "wrong", I typically do not have a single, focused, certain opinion. If it is about perception then I can have several "opinions". If it is a topic I am not certain of, but know that it could be demonstrated externally with more information, then I think in terms of likelihoods or percentages.

 

[Glycerine]

I am typically honest to a fault....that I regret it later but i usually put a complimentary truth in there also. I value honesty over social practicality which puts in trouble sometimes.