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  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Hole Sun View Post

    So do you think in some ways Ni+Fe comes off like Fi?
    (I know this was addressed to Violaine, but I’m throwing in my 2 cents anyway.)

    I think that Ni+Fe and Fi+Ne, a lot of times, will come to the same conclusions about things (centered around idealistic visions of how people should treat each other)- and a lot of characteristics which are often found in Fi descriptions (integrity, low tolerance for injustice, etc) are really more about these conclusions than they are about the process Fi uses to get there. So I think that Ni+Fe can come off like Fi if you’re referring to the idealistic end qualities usually associated with Fi- but the resemblance breaks down when you start comparing the processes used to get there.

    Fi’ers process things in a different direction; they’re more mercurial in an immediate sense, they’re inclined to want to break off into abstract ‘feeling tones’ (or something) in the moment and Ni+Fe can impatient with that if it doesn’t seem germane to the situation/discussion at hand. It seems to me like introverted judgment/extraverted perception is more inclined to process the information immediately and point out abstract fragments that feel important; whereas introverted perception/extraverted judgment has a tendency to want to collect a very basic framework from others so that we can go off and process the information on our own. Too many abstract F fragments in-the-moment are just agitating to us, we like to break down ‘what’s wrong’ in isolation, but Ps find it agitating to not be able to iron them out right away? In that latter sense, Ni+Fe does not resemble Fi.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [...] Fi’ers process things in a different direction; they’re more mercurial in an immediate sense, they’re inclined to want to break off into abstract ‘feeling tones’ (or something) in the moment and Ni+Fe can impatient with that if it doesn’t seem germane to the situation/discussion at hand. It seems to me like introverted judgment/extraverted perception is more inclined to process the information immediately and point out abstract fragments that feel important; whereas introverted perception/extraverted judgment has a tendency to want to collect a very basic framework from others so that we can go off and process the information on our own. Too many abstract F fragments in-the-moment are just agitating to us, we like to break down ‘what’s wrong’ in isolation, but Ps find it agitating to not be able to iron them out right away? In that latter sense, Ni+Fe does not resemble Fi.
    Great analysis. I bolded the parts that pertain to Fi-Doms; I’ll start by commenting on those from my own INFP perspective.

    Basically I agree with the bolded parts concerning how Fi-Dom works. To take an example: When I show up at a meeting of a social group that I belong to, my Ne is outwardly in charge. I usually have no agenda; there isn't any particular subject that I want to talk about. I sit down prepared to hear what’s on other people’s minds and then improvise off of that. Meantime my Fi will be providing a running emotional “commentary” in the back of my mind.

    The absence of boundaries or agendas on the part of my Ne is good in terms of flexibility. For example, if someone complains about a personal problem, I can instantly improvise off of that and start providing mentoring and life-coaching (assuming I actually know something about the subject). And if my background Fi is enjoying what’s happening in the group at the moment, I can stay there all night improvising and having fun; I’ll make a spur-of-the-moment decision to blow off all my other obligations for that evening.

    OTOH, that Ne lack of boundaries and agendas is bad in that it’s a “reactive” posture; it leaves me feeling “at the mercy” of the group. Since I bring no agenda of my own to the meeting, the pace and content are determined and led by others. Again, my Fi is providing a background emotional commentary. If my Fi doesn’t like the agenda or interactions of the group, I may turn argumentative, shut down and sit there without participating, or leave in disgust. A single bad interaction may stir my Fi to the point that I’ll get turned off to the entire group for good.

    This is where you get the stereotype of INFPs floating from group to group or friend to friend, immersing ourselves in new experiences or interactions for a while and then recoiling and moving on when our Fi finds something about the experience that’s a turn-off.

    And that’s where Fe boundaries and agendas seem a bit more preferable, in comparison. When INFJs show up at a meeting, they seem to arrive with boundaries and agendas. They seem to integrate the meeting into the rest of their day and week, both in terms of how long they stay (scheduling issues) and in terms of content. They seem to arrive with ideas of specific things to discuss, usually tied to their larger philosophy or at least other things going on in their life. And they’re not into aimless, silly, improvisational interactions.

    They arrive at the meeting with more of a sense that they know what they’re doing there, what they want to achieve, and how long they want to stay. So they tend to contribute more and be more in control (of the meeting and of their own participation). It gives them a more “proactive” posture toward the meeting; they don’t see themselves “at the mercy” of the group. They are less affected by a single bad experience; they look at the group in the framework of their week and their life and decide how much they want to interact with the group on that basis.

    Just my personal observations, of course. I don’t speak for all INFPs.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Hole Sun View Post
    Great answer...I was thinking the same just didn't know how word it correctly.

    So do you think in some ways Ni+Fe comes off like Fi?
    I'm sure it can look similar to an outsider but agree with @Z Buck McFate, (hah, I love typing out your name :-) ), that the process is different. There's a quality of response that seems different to me. I'm always sifting my responses and outward actions - mostly for correctness and ensuring I considered all POV, the effect of of my words and deeds. I'm running things through a filter. That has all kinds of ramifications. I'm not conflict avoidant either, I'm processing a lot of information before I come to a strong conclusion. I want to make sure my assessment is correct before I take a specific action. I don't really know about Fi, but it does seem more immediate and more about the person experiencing the Fi (bah, I find function talk to be so clumsy but that's another topic). For me to react viscerally, I have to have been through a similar situation first. Actually, I'm rarely comfortable not giving the benefit of the doubt to the situation, if that makes sense. I can see so many reasons why something might have transpired and I'm trying to get a lock. I know that can make INFJs look wishy-washy but it's that I like to take my time weighing things up. The thing that has helped me act more immediately sometimes is that I actively toss out that method in favor of looking at outcomes over motivations. Ni + Fe, depending upon the percentages involved and for want of better descriptions, seems really fluid and like an open circuit to me. Just feed in new info and an outcome will be altered. Fi doesn't seem to need so much lead-time or be actively so open to outside influence, though I don't really know that for sure. Just going by my close interactions with people with strong Fi. It seems more of a personal direct force whereas I feel more interpretative, or trying to understand and leap to new understandings, (if that makes sense), which is rather impersonal (though often applied in the realms of the personal. ). If a Fi-er is quiet about something, I think it's for a different reason than why I might keep my mouth closed about something.

    I have to say that I feel mostly cerebral and up in my head. The times when I experience immediate reactions are when someone threatens or hurts someone I care about and feel responsible for. (Has to be both of those things). Then I fly into action. (I'm working on that though, and exercise helps engage a different part of me to that end). I think the differences between functions that can look alike are all about motivation. As an example, INFJs and INFPs can look alike on the surface but draw a strong INFP and strong INFJ out about the process and I think our roots are very different. Though, how much any of that really matters in superficial interactions when people are behaving very similarly... *shrug*. More of a factor within close relationships. I personally feel I have more in common with INTJs and INTPs though. I like to keep a lid on my reactions and INTJs and INTPs, for different reasons, can appear to be the same temperature of person in that respect. INTJs who have a Fi breakout used to really surprise me - but have actually been nice to be around as I seem to be able to let my "appropriateness" guard down. And in a completely different way, I feel simpatico with ENFJs.

    Ofc, this is all very me, me, me and may not be applicable for others. And one of those posts where I feel I'm able to express the tip of the iceberg of the matter, but unfortunately can't consider for longer due to being time-poor.

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    I personally feel I have more in common with INTJs and INTPs though. I like to keep a lid on my reactions and INTJs and INTPs, for different reasons, can appear to be the same temperature of person in that respect.
    How funny, I feel the same way, but in reverse. To me, INFJs seem the most overtly emotional of the INxx types. In person, I've too related more (and been compared more) to the demeanors of INTx types than say, other Fs. Even my INFJ ex said, "I'm more emotional than you, aren't I?". I'm not sure if that was true so much as he was far more expressive of his emotions, appearing more affected by them, and also more warm in demeanor than me (as most INFJs strike me).

    I don't like to speak of Fi as "feeling tones" though. I think that's exaggerated. I suppose I experience it more rationally. I don't disagree with what @FineLine was saying, but a lot of it is still Ne impressions over Fi judgments, IMO. Ne is responding to what has potential & what doesn't, and when something is deemed to have little positive potential, then we may dismiss it. The Fi judgment to me is more of a predetermined ideal that has been built up in the head over time & is now used as an in-the-moment gauge. The ideal itself is what is spent mulling over in private - refining & deepening an understanding of what is truly significant, meaningful, necessary in the most fundamental, conceptual sense. I suppose I always want to emphasize the rationality of Fi, because I don't experience it as a visceral response, (and I'm quite sure these "tones" are as heavily associated with sensing as with feeling). In line with many Fi descriptions, I get accused a lot of not having feelings, not being sympathetic, etc. This is in stark contrast with INFP stereotypes on forums like this...

    Anyhow, I think the obvious factor in "INFJ individualism" is Ni. Even with SFJs, Si will put quite an individual slant on how value is interpreted. You can use external gauges to decide what is valuable, but what are you even viewing as reliable gauges? The "reliability" is the Si factor. With Ni, I imagine there's a playing with the internal interpretation of external gauges also, so you can have feeling judgments which look Fi-ish because of their very personal, individual nature. What is always striking to me is how INFJs often won't see this as personal/individual though, whereas a Ji-dom almost always does. The type descriptions are uncannily accurate to me when they describe this aspect of Ni-dom (and Fe-dom, for that matter). And to balance that comment, I will note that Ne is experienced as objective too (as FineLine describes...as if we cannot control the potential of something, as if it just emits it to us independent of our own mind).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I don’t even know what “feeling tones” are, really, I just know some INFP used it in one of the Fe/Fi threads once and others seemed to agree.

    This is how I’d chestnut the difference:

    FiNe: "This is the object/external situation, what do I think/feel about it?"

    NiFe: "This is what everyone thinks/feels about the object/external situation, but why?" (or maybe “but where’s the best opinion, and is there one that makes even more sense?”).

    I agree with @violaine in that when I stay silent about something, it seems like it’s for a different reason. With the INFPs I know, it’s like they feel hesitant to voice their opinion (because maybe they sense it won’t be acknowledged or valued?)- but with INFJs, it’s because they’re unsure they have the facts right or they’re concerned there’s some missing viewpoint that needs to be explored. It’s kind of like INFPs will feel the need to explore “Is this really what I think/feel about this?” and need it to feel solid before saying anything (?); whereas an INFJ will get stuck in “Is this really what others think/feel about this, or is my reading of it incorrect?” and/or “Why do they think/feel something that doesn’t make sense to me?” before saying anything.

    (As always, please disagree if this doesn’t sound right, I’m just ‘saying a bunch of stuff’ here.)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [...]I don't like to speak of Fi as "feeling tones" though. I think that's exaggerated. I suppose I experience it more rationally. I don't disagree with what @FineLine was saying, but a lot of it is still Ne impressions over Fi judgments, IMO. Ne is responding to what has potential & what doesn't, and when something is deemed to have little positive potential, then we may dismiss it. The Fi judgment to me is more of a predetermined ideal that has been built up in the head over time & is now used as an in-the-moment gauge. The ideal itself is what is spent mulling over in private - refining & deepening an understanding of what is truly significant, meaningful, necessary in the most fundamental, conceptual sense. I suppose I always want to emphasize the rationality of Fi, because I don't experience it as a visceral response, (and I'm quite sure these "tones" are as heavily associated with sensing as with feeling). In line with many Fi descriptions, I get accused a lot of not having feelings, not being sympathetic, etc. This is in stark contrast with INFP stereotypes on forums like this...[...]
    @OrangeAppled

    Very well put. I particularly love your description of Fi itself (the bolded part). And you're right, when I'm using Fi in the moment, it's not really a question of Fi providing a running commentary in the background; it's more like Ne comparing outside events against that "predetermined ideal that has been built up in the head over time."

    That is, i experience Fi as a static thing, an accumulation of data, decisions, and analysis. The material is mostly rational and well-thought-out, although in practice some of it turns out to be knee-jerk and emotional as well; sometimes it's the knee-jerk material that comes up first. I use the quiet times when I'm alone to mull over events and hone my Fi values; but in the moment, in a social situation, my Fi acts like a "gauge" as you said.

    Like you, I never really liked the "feeling tones" description. I think it originally came from an early on-line description of how non-Fi users or non-emoters could learn to access their emotions like Fi-users: Emotion are experienced as "feeling tones," etc. But it always seemed like kind of a nonsensical description, especially when applied to Fi which is honed and built up over time.

    Of course, my observations in this post are turning into a tangent since I'm not relating them back to Fe, the topic of the thread. I just wanted to note how well you captured Fi. I'll put your description on file and bring it up again the next time we get a good thread going about Fi.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [...] Anyhow, I think the obvious factor in "INFJ individualism" is Ni. [...] What is always striking to me is how INFJs often won't see this as personal/individual though, whereas a Ji-dom almost always does. The type descriptions are uncannily accurate to me when they describe this aspect of Ni-dom (and Fe-dom, for that matter). And to balance that comment, I will note that Ne is experienced as objective too (as FineLine describes...as if we cannot control the potential of something, as if it just emits it to us independent of our own mind).
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [...] I agree with @violaine in that when I stay silent about something, it seems like it’s for a different reason. With the INFPs I know, it’s like they feel hesitant to voice their opinion (because maybe they sense it won’t be acknowledged or valued?)- but with INFJs, it’s because they’re unsure they have the facts right or they’re concerned there’s some missing viewpoint that needs to be explored. It’s kind of like INFPs will feel the need to explore “Is this really what I think/feel about this?” and need it to feel solid before saying anything (?); whereas an INFJ will get stuck in “Is this really what others think/feel about this, or is my reading of it incorrect?” and/or “Why do they think/feel something that doesn’t make sense to me?” before saying anything.
    Just an anecdote about an INFJ I used to know.

    In a social group he often spent a lot of time canvassing to find out how people thought about things. He liked “tour de table” exercises, where a question was posed and everyone was supposed to respond in turn. So I guess at those times he was in data-collection mode, fueling up his Ni.

    Other times he would hit a point where he would take hold of some issue and dog it to death, as though he was certain of the truth of his stance and simply wouldn’t listen to opposing opinions. Usually this occurred in one-on-one debates.

    In the latter case I got the feeling that he had collected data on the issue from the group as a whole, the group’s opinion matched his personal opinion, and now he felt a kind of “flow.” So when he found an outlier or dissenter in the group, it was as if that dissenter became a test subect: If the INFJ had truly tapped into a group “flow” or into a group “truth” of some sort, then presumably the dissenter could be brought round as well; a "truth" is either true or it's not.

    Of course as an INFP, my wishy-washy Ne allowed me to see the point of dissenting attitudes; and my Fi had a bias toward defending the underdog. So the INFJ and I ended up bumping heads on a couple such occasions. But that’s a tangent.

    Note that I'm not criticizing Fe per se; I think that function has a lot to recommend it, and I'm trying to learn to use more of it myself. Mainly I just thought it interesting how the INFJ went from an attitude of testing and data collection to a posture of “certainty” on an issue, to the point where he nagged at dissenters to bring them into line and didn't really hear opposing opinions. That may feed into questions about INFJs and individualism, morals, etc.

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