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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    [...] I think self love is a choice and separate from anything in the outside world. I can still choose to love myself if I am 300 pounds, look like Jabba the Hutt and am a homeless bum. self love is a belief, and one that can be held in any circumstance. ego on the other hand is an externally based feeling of awesomeness that does rely on external stimuli (though, I don't think ego is a bad thing, just that ego should be subservient to reality and self esteem)
    Okay, I’m understanding you better.

    As for ego, we both seem in agreement on ego and its place in the world.

    As for embracing self-esteem irrespective of outside circumstances: Yes, that’s healthy to a certain extent. In a way, that’s the definition of adopting a proactive attitude. That is, you don’t merely react unthinkingly to your environment. When faced with a simulus or situation, you use things like self-awareness, imagination, conscience, and independent will to choose your own path and your own way to deal with things.

    But again, there tends to be a feedback loop happening there. After all, that particular exercise is carried out in the context of dealing with the world. IOW, it’s difficult for me to imagine self-esteem inflated by mere hot air and hanging like a balloon overhead, unaffected by what’s happening in the world.

    Nothing is wrong with telling yourself that you’re lovable; but then you go face the 9-to-5 rat race, the nagging wife, anxiety over an upcoming presentation, etc. The self-love self-affirmations seem hollow compared to the daily collision of egos. Better to address those external problems and work on self-esteem bolstered by confidence in one’s ability to handle the world, i.e., let the internal signals and external signals be mutually reinforcing.

    There is also the question of how you fan the flames of self-love. Do you do it with self-affirmations? Self-indulgence? Shopping binges? Alcohol?

    But other than that, I suppose I have no problem with boosting self-love as a general self-improvement exercise.

  2. #42
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Okay, I’m understanding you better.

    As for ego, we both seem in agreement on ego and its place in the world.
    As for embracing self-esteem irrespective of outside circumstances: Yes, that’s healthy to a certain extent. In a way, that’s the definition of adopting a proactive attitude. That is, you don’t merely react unthinkingly to your environment. When faced with a simulus or situation, you use things like self-awareness, imagination, conscience, and independent will to choose your own path and your own way to deal with things.
    But again, there tends to be a feedback loop happening there. After all, that particular exercise is carried out in the context of dealing with the world. It’s hard to imagine self-esteem inflated by mere hot air and hanging like a ballon overhead, unaffected by what’s happening in the world.
    Nothing is wrong with telling yourself that you’re lovable; but then you go face the 9-to-5 rat race, the nagging wife, anxiety over an upcoming presentation, etc. The self-affirmations seem hollow compared to the daily collision of egos. Better to address those external problems and work on self-esteem bolstered by confidence in one’s ability to handle the world, i.e., let the internal signals and external signals be mutually reinforcing.
    There is also the question of how you fan the flames of self-love. Do you do it with self-affirmations? Self-indulgence? Shopping binges? Alcohol?
    But other than that, I suppose I have no problem with boosting self-love as a general self-improvement exercise.
    - if any of these things affect your self love, you don't truly love yourself unconditionally. self love transcends anything and everything external
    - affirmations do not work. it's changing one's perspective and belief system that are necessary for self love.
    - that said, self love is not the only thing necessary for happiness, nor are the two terms synonymous. addressing external problems and reaping external rewards bring another kind of happiness as does accomplishing objectives/goals, but self esteem is the only part of happiness that is permanent. I agree that all these things are important, just not all related to self love
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - if any of these things affect your self love, you don't truly love yourself unconditionally. self love transcends anything and everything external [...]
    That sounds like self-worship or something.

    Oh well, I'll have to think about it. I don't think my own personality works like that. But I've heard of people doing things like adopt totems or deliberately create a positive self-picture as a focus point for self-improvement. So maybe it's something along that line.

    [Edit:] It could even be an Fi-Auxiliary thing where you create an idealized version of yourself to live up to.

    Interesting discussion. Thanks for clarifying the point.

  4. #44
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    That sounds like self-worship or something.
    Oh well, I'll have to think about it. I don't think my own personality works like that. But I've heard of people doing things like adopt totems or deliberately create a positive self-picture as a focus point for self-improvement. So maybe it's something along that line.
    [Edit:] It could even be an Fi-Auxiliary thing where you create an idealized version of yourself to live up to.
    Interesting discussion. Thanks for clarifying the point.
    it's called being a darkworker (no, it's not a cult, it's a form of polarized motivation and has been around for thousands of years)
    http://darkworkers.com/2008/05/the-p...he-darkworker/
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
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    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    it's called being a darkworker (no, it's not a cult, it's a form of polarized motivation and has been around for thousands of years)
    http://darkworkers.com/2008/05/the-p...he-darkworker/
    Looks pretty New Age-y and not really my cup of tea. But yeah, it seems close to what I described in my last post; it seems to be about constructing an archetype or idealized version of oneself and embracing it. The First Stage specifically mentions using it to heal old traumas; i.e., as a self-improvement tool.

    In a way, it’s not so terribly different from more mundane self-improvement exercises. Earlier this morning I wrote up a description of how INFPs can externalize their Fi and interact with it via “personal mission statements” and “visualization & affirmation exercises”: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...83#post1864883

    But I can see where an ENFP would embrace something more direct. Fi is more consciously-directed for ENFPs than for INFPs, so ENFPs can basically see it front of them and manipulate it more directly. Hence an archetype approach.

    As usual, just brainstorming here.

  6. #46
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Looks pretty New Age-y and not really my cup of tea. But yeah, it seems close to what I described in my last post; it seems to be about constructing an archetype or idealized version of oneself and embracing it. The First Stage specifically mentions using it to heal old traumas; i.e., as a self-improvement tool.

    In a way, it’s not so terribly different from more mundane self-improvement exercises. Earlier this morning I wrote up a description of how INFPs can externalize their Fi and interact with it via “personal mission statements” and “visualization & affirmation exercises”: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...83#post1864883

    But I can see where an ENFP would embrace something more direct. Fi is more consciously-directed for ENFPs than for INFPs, so ENFPs can basically see it front of them and manipulate it more directly. Hence an archetype approach.

    As usual, just brainstorming here.
    I think INFPs tend to spend more time thinking about the concept of various morals while ENFPs are more focused on "how do I make this ideal a reality". INFPs who lack Te often view acting to manifest their morals as unimportant, sort of like "the world is going to flawed anyway unless I can manifest ALL my values onto it, so why try?" or they can go the exact opposite direction do just that, try to manifest everything about their morality onto the world, thinking nothing on the consequences of this behavior or the most strategic way to go about it. of course, most INFPs have more temperance than this, but it seems like this is their tendency.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I think INFPs tend to spend more time thinking about the concept of various morals while ENFPs are more focused on "how do I make this ideal a reality". INFPs who lack Te often view acting to manifest their morals as unimportant, sort of like "the world is going to flawed anyway unless I can manifest ALL my values onto it, so why try?" or they can go the exact opposite direction do just that, try to manifest everything about their morality onto the world, thinking nothing on the consequences of this behavior or the most strategic way to go about it. of course, most INFPs have more temperance than this, but it seems like this is their tendency.
    Something like that.

    Everyone’s dominant function is more or less unconscious. For INFPs, our Fi-Dom value judgements come out of the blue, as though descended from God or welling up from our own depths. We see those value judgments as our private domain, revelations mainly pertaining to us alone... except at times of stress, when we suddenly feel the need to impose our values on the rest of the world, at which point we start acting like we personally have become “the hammer of the gods.”

    [Edit:] So we need tools like the "personal mission statement" and "visualization & affirmation excercise" that I mentioned in my other post if we want to bring our Fi out into the open. Since it's unconscious, it's tough to get it out into the open where we can see it.

    Meanwhile our Auxiliary Ne is more conscious and under our direct control. It’s easier to feel that we have some control over it. We like it in particular for pleasant daydreaming, fantasizing, whimsy, role-playing, etc., and we can usually turn it on and turn it off as needed.

    ENFPs would presumably be the opposite. Ne-Dom idea-churning would tend to feel natural and unconscious and a little bit out of your control.

    Auxiliary Fi, on the other hand, would be more controllable, more something you can contemplate and decide consciously whether and how to apply it in the world.

    At least, that’s how I imagine it.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I think self love is a choice and separate from anything in the outside world. I can still choose to love myself if I am 300 pounds, look like Jabba the Hutt and am a homeless bum. self love is a belief, and one that can be held in any circumstance. ego on the other hand is an externally based feeling of awesomeness that does rely on external stimuli (though, I don't think ego is a bad thing, just that ego should be subservient to reality and self esteem)
    I would say it's not always a choice. When you're clinically depressed, you're not depressed "because of" or "despite" something. It just exists within you, eating away your self-worth until your own self seems like a grotesque, unloveable creature to you. Like a cancer, I guess.

    At least, that's what I gather from accounts... It's a grim experience.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  9. #49
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I would say it's not always a choice. When you're clinically depressed, you're not depressed "because of" or "despite" something. It just exists within you, eating away your self-worth until your own self seems like a grotesque, unloveable creature to you. Like a cancer, I guess.
    At least, that's what I gather from accounts... It's a grim experience.
    depends on the source of the depression.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  10. #50
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    depends on the source of the depression.
    Well, I'm talking about clinical depression - it's more like an illness than just a state of mind.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

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