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  1. #31
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I guess that's my question. why would someone's self esteem come from an external source?
    Because I'm social variant first, I'm an Fe user, and I am an extrovert.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I guess that's my question. why would someone's self esteem come from an external source?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Because I'm social variant first, I'm an Fe user, and I am an extrovert.
    To expand on this a bit:

    We can use self-affirmations to build up an enhanced internal picture of ourselves as competent or at least lovable. But if we remain incompetent in the outer world, there is going to be some dissonance between the self-love signals we receive from inside and the failure signals we receive from outside.

    IOW self-love flows from self-esteem. But self-esteem, in turn, is affected to some degree by confidence in our ability to handle the outside world. So our interactions with the outside world remain part of the equation.

    That’s as it should be. The outside world provides us with “reality checks” for our inner beliefs and assumptions. Without “reality checks,” we become increasingly inappropriate in our behavior or disconnect entirely with our environment and float off into delusion.

    [Not a shrink. Just brainstorming this stuff like the rest.]

  3. #33
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    To expand on this a bit:

    We can use self-affirmations to build up an enhanced internal picture of ourselves as competent or at least lovable. But if we remain incompetent in the outer world, there is going to be some dissonance between the self-love signals we receive from inside and the failure signals we receive from outside.

    IOW self-love flows from self-esteem. But self-esteem, in turn, is affected to some degree by confidence in our ability to handle the outside world. So our interactions with the outside world remain part of the equation.

    That’s as it should be. The outside world provides us with “reality checks” for our inner beliefs and assumptions. Without “reality checks,” we become increasingly inappropriate in our behavior or disconnect entirely with our environment and float off into delusion.

    [Not a shrink. Just brainstorming this stuff like the rest.]
    He is also a SP/SX variant so it makes sense that his self esteem would come from an almost entirely internal source.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    We can use self-affirmations to build up an enhanced internal picture of ourselves as competent or at least lovable. But if we remain incompetent in the outer world, there is going to be some dissonance between the self-love signals we receive from inside and the failure signals we receive from outside.

    IOW self-love flows from self-esteem. But self-esteem, in turn, is affected to some degree by confidence in our ability to handle the outside world. So our interactions with the outside world remain part of the equation.

    That’s as it should be. The outside world provides us with “reality checks” for our inner beliefs and assumptions. Without “reality checks,” we become increasingly inappropriate in our behavior or disconnect entirely with our environment and float off into delusion.
    Holy shit, great summation.

    I'll say that I wish that I could love myself unconditionally, but I definitely have moments where I don't. Those moments can be a powerful motivator for change, but there are healthier motivators out there.

  5. #35
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    Besides these excellent points:

    Because we get tricked into believing we need a reason to love (myself or something else).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    To expand on this a bit:

    We can use self-affirmations to build up an enhanced internal picture of ourselves as competent or at least lovable. But if we remain incompetent in the outer world, there is going to be some dissonance between the self-love signals we receive from inside and the failure signals we receive from outside.

    IOW self-love flows from self-esteem. But self-esteem, in turn, is affected to some degree by confidence in our ability to handle the outside world. So our interactions with the outside world remain part of the equation.

    That’s as it should be. The outside world provides us with “reality checks” for our inner beliefs and assumptions. Without “reality checks,” we become increasingly inappropriate in our behavior or disconnect entirely with our environment and float off into delusion.

    [Not a shrink. Just brainstorming this stuff like the rest.]
    Well said. I also wonder if self-love is a misnomer where self-acceptance within reasonable boundaries might be a more balanced stance.

  7. #37
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Well said. I also wonder if self-love is a misnomer where self-acceptance within reasonable boundaries might be a more balanced stance.
    personally, I think balance is overrated sometimes. some things are great in excess, and I think self love is one of them. I'm sure reasonably, more tempered self love would be ideal, but the goal isn't to be reasonable, because if you are going purely off of reason, everything is objectively meaningless. reason makes a wonderful servant, but a horrible master. as I said, live is inherently meaningless, what matters is the meaning you give it, so why not give yourself a lot of love?
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  8. #38
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Why do people assume that other people have to love themselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    [...] the goal isn't to be reasonable, because if you are going purely off of reason, everything is objectively meaningless. reason makes a wonderful servant, but a horrible master. as I said, live is inherently meaningless, what matters is the meaning you give it, so why not give yourself a lot of love?
    People make too much of the meaninglessness of life. Life is meaningless, but you still have to live. There is still the outside world and its “reality checks.”

    It’s like saying, “Life is meaningless, so I might as well eat candy 24 hours a day.” Life is indeed meaningless, but eventually you will still have to deal with the “reality check” of weighing 300 pounds and having scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies after a few months of living that way.

    That’s especially true when interacting with others in the world around you. Life is all about egos. If your ego is constantly in conflict with the egos of others around you, your ego is going to get beat down. There is a lot of inertia in society, and it's tiring and inefficient to swim against the current all the time. So you find that balance between satisfying your own ego and putting up with constraints put on you by outside egos.

    If you can isolate yourself from others and live comfortably that way, then fine: do as you please. But if you have goals in the real world, you have to account for the egos of others in between you and that goal.

    In turn, that means accounting for the signals coming from the outside world. And those signals temper your view of the world and your place in it. Self-love (self-acceptance) doesn’t exist in isolation.

  10. #40
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    People make too much of the meaninglessness of life. Life is meaningless, but you still have to live. There is still the outside world and its “reality checks.”
    It’s like saying, “Life is meaningless, so I might as well eat candy 24 hours a day.” Life may be meaningless, but eventually you will still have to deal with the “reality check” of weighing 300 pounds and having scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies after a few months of living that way.
    I agree

    That’s especially true when interacting with others in the world around you. Life is all about egos. If your ego is constantly in conflict with the egos of others around you, your ego is going to get beat down. There is a lot of inertia in society, and it's tiring and inefficient to swim against the current all the time. So you find that balance between satisfying your own ego and putting up with constraints put on you by outside egos.
    If you can isolate yourself from others and live comfortably that way, then fine: do as you please. But if you have goals in the real world, you have to account for the egos of others in between you and that goal.
    I don't think appeasing people's ego is necessary as much as not hurting them (unless you are in some sort of unhealthy power structure, in which case, unfortunately, appeasing people's egos is often a necessity). you certainly don't need to appease/ego trip everyone important to your success. if you are respectful, have something to offer and make a fair deal, that's generally enough for most people worth doing deals with.

    In turn, that means accounting for the signals coming from the outside world. And those signals temper your view of the world and your place in it. Self-love (self-acceptance) doesn’t exist in isolation.
    I think self love is a choice and separate from anything in the outside world. I can still choose to love myself if I am 300 pounds, look like Jabba the Hutt and am a homeless bum. self love is a belief, and one that can be held in any circumstance. ego on the other hand is an externally based feeling of awesomeness that does rely on external stimuli (though, I don't think ego is a bad thing, just that ego should be subservient to reality and self esteem)
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