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  1. #41
    Junior Member thegrayvapour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    In Covenant, I believe only adultery and child abuse are grounds for divorce. So abusive, noncommunicative, or a fluid partner aren't really seen as legitimate reasons for divorce in a Covenant sanctioned union. I like it because I like taking the focus off dating and doing more courting, which leads to the inevitable marriage, if the courting relationship continues. Anyway, your desire to be friends seems more like courting and less like dating, which also seems more like Covenant and less like modern marriage.
    I can understand why those would give reason to leave a marriage. I'd like to think that forgiveness and most likely mediation would be enough to get through terrible things like that. I've seen marriages survive unfaithfulness and it's inspiring. I've also seen marriages survive sexual abuse of children, which is horrifying. Just imagine if the trust was restored and there was forgiveness after that, what sorts of other unbelievable things are possible in this world.

    The way that I approach romantic relationships does look more like courtship from my side. I'm just more quiet about it. It would definitely be more accepted in a church setting, for sure. I have views about money and love that meet resistance from the church in America (read: what women in those subcultures except).

    Modern marriage lost it's sanctity long ago, about the same time we accepted consumerism as a way of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    I think it's about consciousness. Consciousness that you as a couple are more committed to the ups and downs of lifelong relationship, and that you look to God (and Jesus) to guide you through and to worship. Someone else mentioned breaking down of individual partners' egos and a regrowth of a couple-ego, which I loved. I think that really is what happens when you meet your soulmate or fall deeply in love with someone, or desire to remake your life from single to double. We are always trying to assert our independence in relationship to the point that we call any desire to be One--or to meld with our mate; or change our behaviors, desires, or goals--as 'codependent,' and any therapist you go to will try to push this point home. But what I believe it that a serious, committed relationship does change you, and that being codependent, within reason, is a very good thing, and the kind of relationship I desire.
    I agree. I think communication and mutual experience is what creates and builds that consciousness. I too, really like the idea of breaking down individual ego and growing a couple-ego. That takes time and I've got some left (checks screenplay)

    Wendell Berry has written some insightful words about relationships, community and God.

    It doesn't take a certain kind, or level of relationship to change me. I'm in my late 20s and I have a pretty good handle on what I need to maintain a healthy amount of individuality and what is reasonable to budge on or freely give in my friendships, work relationships, etc. I tend to err on the side of giving too much. I'm still learning about pacing and boundaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    But how many seats do you need?
    I only need one. If you're all on one plane, traveling at one speed to the same place, why not pay the same price and get treated equally?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Abandonment is also a grounds for legal separation in Covenant marriage. i.e. in the church a wife disappeared and left a husband with a small child and after a year or a few was granted a divorce since they was no contact or way to reach the bride. I know way too much about these topics from my Baptist youth in Texas.
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  3. #43
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegrayvapour View Post
    I can understand why those would give reason to leave a marriage. I'd like to think that forgiveness and most likely mediation would be enough to get through terrible things like that. I've seen marriages survive unfaithfulness and it's inspiring. I've also seen marriages survive sexual abuse of children, which is horrifying. Just imagine if the trust was restored and there was forgiveness after that, what sorts of other unbelievable things are possible in this world.
    Yeah. Love and God can pretty much handle anything. I never have agreed to the modern notion you hear people spew all the time, "If he ever cheates on me, I'm done!" lol. I've always thought that was ridiculous. Okay, so a drunken night of debauchery and cowgirl sex with a barfly erases a whole decade of marriage? Or suddenly makes your soulmate a nonmate? Okaayyyy.....I think that actually gives one a pretty good vignette of modern marriage though.

    I think it really just depends on how you look at it. Again, if there is consciousness, and a willingness to put the marriage first, then anything is possible (with God); if not, then it might not be good. What do you think?

    The way that I approach romantic relationships does look more like courtship from my side. I'm just more quiet about it. It would definitely be more accepted in a church setting, for sure. I have views about money and love that meet resistance from the church in America (read: what women in those subcultures except).
    I'm not really understanding you here. Will you elaborate?

    Modern marriage lost it's sanctity long ago, about the same time we accepted consumerism as a way of life.
    And the TV in the bedroom is really a symbol of that as well, eh.?



    I agree. I think communication and mutual experience is what creates and builds that consciousness. I too, really like the idea of breaking down individual ego and growing a couple-ego. That takes time and I've got some left (checks screenplay)

    Wendell Berry has written some insightful words about relationships, community and God.
    Oh, I'll have to check him out. I watched those videos on covenant marriage someone posted and I have to say I like that pastor. I've found I'm a bit picky about pastors, so when I like one, it's saying something. I like how he says "we are all messed up," meaning we all are in the same boat, struggling to be human in our time here on earth.


    I only need one. If you're all on one plane, traveling at one speed to the same place, why not pay the same price and get treated equally?
    Nice visual. Will we get free drinks too?
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  4. #44
    Junior Member thegrayvapour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Yeah. Love and God can pretty much handle anything. I never have agreed to the modern notion you hear people spew all the time, "If he ever cheates on me, I'm done!" lol. I've always thought that was ridiculous. Okay, so a drunken night of debauchery and cowgirl sex with a barfly erases a whole decade of marriage? Or suddenly makes your soulmate a nonmate? Okaayyyy.....I think that actually gives one a pretty good vignette of modern marriage though.
    I want to be the kind of man that can let go of my ego enough to forgive cheating. I'm already the kind of man who has limits and boundaries. We'll see how that goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    I think it really just depends on how you look at it. Again, if there is consciousness, and a willingness to put the marriage first, then anything is possible (with God); if not, then it might not be good. What do you think?
    I think that God is still able to do things without our co-operation. I also believe (heretically) that whatever good happens in the world comes from God, whether or not Christians were involved. (I'll never get into the gates of Orange County with that attitude.)

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    I'm not really understanding you here. Will you elaborate?
    I was born and raised in the church. My mom and dad were both on the staff at my church. I went to Christian school and college and even interned at a church for a couple years. I'm one test and an interview (amoung many other things)away from being an ordained minister.

    I think capitalism is wrong. I think house and property ownership is wrong. I think buying things you don't need and many other people ignorantly live without is wrong. I am morally opposed to car ownership and driving on a daily basis. I think borrowing money is wrong. I think adverstising is reprehensible. I don't believe that God hates anyone, whether they are sexually attracted to the right sex or no sex or inanimate objects. I don't believe Jesus was kidding when he said to take care of the poor and the disenfranchised at the cost of our comforts. I think it is ridiculous to spend millions to pay for church campuses where we gather and talk and sing about the one person who would sell everything and even die for the kinds of people who are ignored by the church.

    I believe that love always does what is the best for the other person, regardless of the position it puts you in.

    (that's what she said)

    I also believe in irreverent humour.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    And the TV in the bedroom is really a symbol of that as well, eh.?
    As well as the cost and reasons for a "normal" wedding, with the ability to "dispose" of it and it's resistance to decomposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    Oh, I'll have to check him out. I watched those videos on covenant marriage someone posted and I have to say I like that pastor. I've found I'm a bit picky about pastors, so when I like one, it's saying something. I like how he says "we are all messed up," meaning we all are in the same boat, struggling to be human in our time here on earth.
    He's a crochety old man. Which is why I like him. He says a lot about the responsibility a couple has to their community. Meaning: your relationship means something to the people around you. Even the ones you don't know, so don't fuck it up. (or enter it lightly) (that's what... nvrmnd.)

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    Nice visual. Will we get free drinks too?
    Sure. I just think it's shitty when false scarcity is used as a tactic and we just go along with it without question.

  5. #45
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegrayvapour View Post
    oh my god.

    I'm in the friendzone.
    What the hell's goin on in this thread? I just came back-in to check on how things were progressing...and instead we're talking about the definition of 'friend zone' and discussing 'Cov. Marriage'?

    What happened? Did you talk to her?

  6. #46
    Junior Member thegrayvapour's Avatar
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    No, I haven't. I was just over-reacting. Probably.

    I met her for coffee with the intention of telling her. Before I could, she started with a story about her friend who likes her and she doesn't want to date him. She said she has a problem saying "no" to hanging out with people. I said it must be difficult for her because she draws people in with her nurturing and doesn't want to reject them or be rejected. I figured telling the story must be her way of handling the issue with me. That, or she was opening the topic to discussion.

    The rest of the day, she was very comfortable standing or sitting close to me and she brushed up against me a few times. (?) I mentioned to her that we deal with the same issue from opposite sides; I tend to fall in love with my friends. and got no reaction. Blank face. No words. No quick look away. (?)

    I'm detached from my feelings at the moment. It's like I'm aware on them, but they are laying over there on the floor and I'm content over here for now. She makes me so comfortable.

    She showed up the yesterday at my other job. She said she was going to call me and see if I wanted to go thrifting. I declined, but told her check in with me tonight. Right after that I was invited to go out with somebody else.

    I just don't know. She sees me as a good friend, someone who she is comfortable sharing things with, and who she likes spending time with. She isn't a cruel person and doesn't need validation. So, maybe she has no idea. I'm confused.

    I'll let you know when I man up and tell her. Or whatever. I think drinks should happen.

  7. #47
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegrayvapour View Post
    I want to be the kind of man that can let go of my ego enough to forgive cheating. I'm already the kind of man who has limits and boundaries. We'll see how that goes.
    I think if you are treating life like a dress rehearsal, you aren't fully living. Some things you just cannot know until you are in them.


    I think that God is still able to do things without our co-operation. I also believe (heretically) that whatever good happens in the world comes from God, whether or not Christians were involved. (I'll never get into the gates of Orange County with that attitude.)



    I was born and raised in the church. My mom and dad were both on the staff at my church. I went to Christian school and college and even interned at a church for a couple years. I'm one test and an interview (amoung many other things)away from being an ordained minister.
    That is so cool. When I think about it, I realize a minister has a lot of power to bring the word of God to the people, because people give him/her that power. I also think people are sorely lacking strong spiritual leaders--that we are starving for it, but perhaps don't even realize it. I see the crowds outside Skull Church on Weds and other days, and it reminds me people really want the word of God, and to come together in that, but we need a beacon to reach for and to guide us in that.

    I myself have been doing a little morning daily meditation on God, and am working my way chapter by chapter through the Bible this way, along with using some other tools, but I would occasionally like to worship with others as well. I think it is hard to find an unpretentious and selfless pastor, and that is what I require if I am going to worship with others. I guess it's like any other profession in that it's hard to find someone good. Or maybe it's more about fit. Like each minister has something to offer and it's just finding the one with a style/spirit that appeals to you. Do you ever consider finishing and becoming a minister?

    I think capitalism is wrong. I think house and property ownership is wrong. I think buying things you don't need and many other people ignorantly live without is wrong. I am morally opposed to car ownership and driving on a daily basis. I think borrowing money is wrong. I think adverstising is reprehensible. I don't believe that God hates anyone, whether they are sexually attracted to the right sex or no sex or inanimate objects. I don't believe Jesus was kidding when he said to take care of the poor and the disenfranchised at the cost of our comforts. I think it is ridiculous to spend millions to pay for church campuses where we gather and talk and sing about the one person who would sell everything and even die for the kinds of people who are ignored by the church.
    Wow. That is quite a harsh list. I'm philosophically libertarian, so I think people should have freedom. Not sure how I feel I guess about owning natural resources. I guess I do have a problem with that to a certain degree. What if individuals end up owning everything and destroying it. But individuals make up government too. So yeah. It's confusing. I sort of think natural resources should be managed by some sort of collective comprised of representatives from all walks of society perhaps.......seems the most protective. Not sure what I mean beyond that. But regarding living no one should have a right to tell anyone else (outside of minors, etc) how to live, or what to believe.

    I believe that love always does what is the best for the other person, regardless of the position it puts you in.

    (that's what she said)
    Well put!........

    I also believe in irreverent humour.


    There is no better humor.



    As well as the cost and reasons for a "normal" wedding, with the ability to "dispose" of it and it's resistance to decomposition.
    Agreed. People used to just up and marry, practically overnight, without all the pomp and circumstance. I mean, a 10K wedding. Wow. But if you have that money, and that is how you wanna spend it, I say good for you.


    He's a crochety old man. Which is why I like him. He says a lot about the responsibility a couple has to their community. Meaning: your relationship means something to the people around you. Even the ones you don't know, so don't fuck it up. (or enter it lightly) (that's what... nvrmnd.)
    I know this to be true. It sort-of rocks a community, if it is close-knit, when a family (couple) splits up, moves, or has some serious misfortune befall it.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #48
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegrayvapour View Post
    No, I haven't. I was just over-reacting. Probably.

    I met her for coffee with the intention of telling her. Before I could, she started with a story about her friend who likes her and she doesn't want to date him. She said she has a problem saying "no" to hanging out with people. I said it must be difficult for her because she draws people in with her nurturing and doesn't want to reject them or be rejected. I figured telling the story must be her way of handling the issue with me. That, or she was opening the topic to discussion.
    That have been a good chance to ask questions like “Have you given clues to him that you aren’t interested? etc" )

    The rest of the day, she was very comfortable standing or sitting close to me and she brushed up against me a few times. (?) I mentioned to her that we deal with the same issue from opposite sides; I tend to fall in love with my friends. and got no reaction. Blank face. No words. No quick look away. (?)
    Incidental contact isn’t the same as deliberate romantic contact. Don’t read into it.

    I just don't know. She sees me as a good friend, someone who she is comfortable sharing things with, and who she likes spending time with. She isn't a cruel person and doesn't need validation. So, maybe she has no idea. I'm confused.
    I thought that mutual friend already told her your feelings, which lead to her coming to you with her “advice” that you didn’t care for. If so, ENFJ already knows.

    I'll let you know when I man up and tell her. Or whatever. I think drinks should happen.
    Liquid courage is a bad idea.

    .....

    Warning, the following doesn't apply to EVERY INFP ever. Or every ENFJ. I think it fits frequently enough to be worth saying, though.

    One of the challenges with INFP / ENFJ is that both can treat love as an art form, but completely different art forms. The INFP treats love like a painting, something created with love and care while hiding behind a canvas, and then presents it to the object of their affection; whereas the ENFJ treats it like a dance that is constantly fluid and on-going, step-by-step, motion and emotion intertwined in expression.

    The trap the INFP can fall into is when their love, like a painting, is more about the INFP's expressive desires and becomes more “inspired by” the other person, rather than “created with”. (Does the differentiation make sense?) So when/if the INFP presents this labor of love, it's a lot at once, and frequently all or nothing. If the person loves the painting, all ends well, but since love is a very personal and complex subject, a direct hit like that will be exceedingly rare.

    Of course, ENFJs have their trap as well. Sometimes, when they find someone who proves a great dance partner, they get so caught up in the dance that they fail to analyze if the other person is even a worthy dance partner at all.

    So instead of continuing to use the ENFJ as an inspiration for the love you are creating, why don't you break out from behind the canvas and try and create something together? It may not work. You may not end up creating what you want to create. Still, you will have a much better chance if you ask her to pick up a paint brush than you will if you give her this painting that you've spent the last several months laboring over, forcing her to either accept it or reject it on the spot.

    The thing is, love is something that should be created with someone. With the right partner, you may end up creating something that's far better than you could have ever imagined by yourself.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegrayvapour View Post
    No, I haven't. I was just over-reacting. Probably.

    I met her for coffee with the intention of telling her. Before I could, she started with a story about her friend who likes her and she doesn't want to date him. She said she has a problem saying "no" to hanging out with people. I said it must be difficult for her because she draws people in with her nurturing and doesn't want to reject them or be rejected. I figured telling the story must be her way of handling the issue with me. That, or she was opening the topic to discussion.

    The rest of the day, she was very comfortable standing or sitting close to me and she brushed up against me a few times. (?) I mentioned to her that we deal with the same issue from opposite sides; I tend to fall in love with my friends. and got no reaction. Blank face. No words. No quick look away. (?)

    I'm detached from my feelings at the moment. It's like I'm aware on them, but they are laying over there on the floor and I'm content over here for now. She makes me so comfortable.

    She showed up the yesterday at my other job. She said she was going to call me and see if I wanted to go thrifting. I declined, but told her check in with me tonight. Right after that I was invited to go out with somebody else.

    I just don't know. She sees me as a good friend, someone who she is comfortable sharing things with, and who she likes spending time with. She isn't a cruel person and doesn't need validation. So, maybe she has no idea. I'm confused.

    I'll let you know when I man up and tell her. Or whatever. I think drinks should happen.
    My mind right now is just screaming out, go freaking tell her when you get onto that topic again.

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