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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Default Why We Shouldn't Judge ENFPs' Value In Relationships On INFP Standards

    Oh lord, @Zarathustra, you've opened the flood gates of ENFPdom.

    I. Relevance to Thread:

    To be honest, as much as my little theoretical mind recoils at the thought that reality might actually have a grip on me for once, I don't think it's entirely useful to say what type is better for who. I believe there is something about love that really messes with quantification.

    I believe that ENFPs can be great for INTJs and it sounds like INFPs can too. I suspect that ENFP-INTJ relationships have an easier time dealing with the practical world and I suspect that INFP-INTJ relationships have an easier time balancing alone time with together time. As for who's better for who - I don't think it can be done. I don't believe it should be done. There are so many confounding factors - age, upbringing, childhood, previous relationships, beliefs, values, goals, desires, needs, gifts, weaknesses, health, culture, education - and they can't be isolated; they're all synergistic. All combine to make people what they are. Type can play a major role, but I don't think it's far-reaching enough to predict all relationships.

    In this thread, in this situation, INTJ guy clearly feels something deep for the INFP. I agree with @mia that both types should be equally considered, and I think @Coriolis' advice here is spot-on.

    II. As for Everything @Mia.'s Said:

    Well, honestly, most of it is pretty offensive and a glaring misinterpretation. ENFPs are a different breed and our objective value in relationships can't be judged solely on an INFP's set of standards.

    1. We flirt because it makes people feel good about themselves and it makes people smile. I have learned that this can mislead people and I try not to engage people in any way that they would think that I have anything beyond platonic intention. I think this is a surprising lesson for ENFPs because others' "flirting" is our natural behavior. The truth is that when I like someone, I tend to clam up and get distant; I become quiet and hypervigilant. Flirting just to say "you are special to me" is easy. Communicating "you are more special to me than everyone else" - that's a lot more of a challenge and requires learning about the other person before acting.

    2. Introverts and extraverts keep their selves in different places. We can both be equally deep, equally intentioned, equally committed. But extraverts are constantly engaged by the external world, and you have to allow for that in relationships. It's not about flightiness, or about whatever you call "volume" - I actually have no idea what you mean by that, but it surely doesn't sound flattering. With two introverts, maybe you'll be content to sit there and gaze at each others' navels for eternity, so to speak. Extraverts are going to need external stimulation. It doesn't make us superficial - truth is, in some ways we have a better concept of reality than you.

    Moreover, it's not really an apt comparison to say "twice the volume" with ENTJ:INTJ::ENFP:INFP because you're talking about Te dom : Ni dom :: Ne dom : Fi dom. ENFP isn't outputting twice as much; we're actually taking in twice as much. INFPs have twice the internal structure. If that's what you consider "twice the depth", okay. I find my depth more in my concepts and ability to communicate than in my feelings. I imagine an ENTJ would say something similar about finding more of their important self in their actions and accomplishments.

    3. It seems like people falsely assume that for ENFPs enthusiasm and excitement equals commitment or dedication. In my world, these two things do not equate, and it's hard for me to understand why others equate them. As with flirting, I have learned this difference through experience and observation, and have worked to tone this down as I've grown up because I don't desire to mislead others. But! to a certain extent I don't feel like that misinterpretation is entirely my fault, nor do I feel like I should have to restrain my happiness because others don't understand it. Learning that everyone doesn't operate like you is a huge part of growth in a relationship.

    4. ENFPs are humans too, not flitty butterflies, and our love can deepen and grow as well. However, unlike with many INFPs, we don't care to openly share our darker, sadder, more anxious side with the world, and certainly we're not going to shove that in the face of someone we've just begun courting. That's a discussion to be had later when the relationship has stabilized - and the more I love someone, and the more I trust them, the more I let them in. So I feel like with ENFPs it probably is easier in the beginning (we LIKE the game!), and then there's a harder part after the initial stage where we start opening our darker, deeper selves up. And it is really easy at this point to get scared and run away. Because, as INFPs should well know, people don't always want to accept that darker side of you. They think you're crazy or unstable or far too emotional, or all of those things. So yes, the relationship with an ENFP is going to be more challenging later - but not increasingly challenging into forever. Just instead of a huge bump at the beginning like with INFPs, there's probably going to be a small bump at the beginning and then a bigger bump later.

    6. We do have grass-is-greener syndrome - but quite frankly, I suspect a lot of INFPs do too (it's not like you guys don't have strong Ne) - it's just that INFPs wouldn't sacrifice the Fi stuff for the Ne stuff, whereas we might. At the same time, that "flightiness" - need for novelty - can be satisfied without sacrificing commitment in a relationship. We can redirect that energy into being planners, travellers, good hostesses, designers, creators, innovators, voracious readers - just because some ENFPs run from commitment doesn't mean the group as a whole is doomed. If anything, it can make us stronger in terms of supporting the synergistic couple, since we are almost always ready and willing to interact with the world, partner included, and we will be constantly bringing new information into the relationship with the goal of bettering it.

    As for myself - one day I asked my ESJ if he ever thought about being with other girls, because honestly I was seriously thinking about how it'd be to be with other guys. You know what he responded? Sure, I think about that sometimes. WHAT A RELIEF. And so I laughed. And we talked about our thoughts, and mutually agreed that we rather enjoyed our relationship. And then we snuggled and went to sleep.
    Last edited by skylights; 06-01-2012 at 04:43 PM. Reason: edit edit edit

  2. #42
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ENFPs: what say you about this?

    @skylights @agentfurrina @Vala Faye @Orobas @Lady X @Huxley3112
    hmm...it's always interesting to examine the facts. *sharpens Te ax*

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Usually anything we say is more meaningful than what an ENFP says.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I believe you said in another post something to the effect that an ENTJ you know is like half the research but twice the volume of an INTJ. This is true with ENFPs and INFPs as well, only it is half the sincerity/meaning/depth and twice the volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    [...] in terms of the two types in general, INFPs have twice the staying power, depth, and intention of ENFPs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    We are looking for stable relationships (obviously enneagram is going to affect it), and have more staying power and levels than ENFPs in general, all while providing such complimentary services as wild imagination and obscene amounts of snuggling. The ENFP feeding frenzy will end as soon as something more shiny swims by, and you pay later when the warm fuzzies wear off and their distractibility kicks back in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I thoroughly enjoy flirting.[...]INFPs are more apt to use flirting more judiciously, whereas ENFPs...... well..... let's face it..... ENFPs aren’t necessarily flirting because it means anything… it’s because it’s Tuesday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    [INTJs] tend to be as withdrawn and selective as we do. Both of the types are idealists. They want the best form of anything, and that includes relationships, and they constantly want to improve. I actually think this is one of the reasons why the pairing is optimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I see these couples/pairing everywhere. It is not an unusual pairing, and I don’t think that is coincidental. I think it is by design
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I am not saying INFPs are better than ENFPs for INTJs. At all. I was responding to the thought many posts back that ENFPs are a better match, and saying INFPs deserve the same consideration and have equal potential.
    seems like someone's hoping we aren't paying attention. (i particularly enjoyed the hasty disclaimers and general backpedaling once you summoned the Te users to examine her claims, Z).

    if you're going to do a comparative analysis, be thorough about it. be fair. be honest. because the "distractible" ENFPs will sniff out your bullshit and the "sweet little adorably vulnerable INTJs" will identify the discrepancies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    *Bolts out of the room, hides in the vast reaches of the forest*
    go ahead and take your half-assed arguments with you, honey. because you got no skillz.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
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    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

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  3. #43
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    With INFPs you pay up front. It’s true. Once we become truly comfortable, the hardest work is done. At that point, we will continually seek to deepen, cement and nurture the relationship. Every relationship has it’s problems, but it gets smoother from there usually in terms of type dynamics. We are looking for stable relationships (obviously enneagram is going to affect it), and have more staying power and levels than ENFPs in general, all while providing such complimentary services as wild imagination and obscene amounts of snuggling. The ENFP feeding frenzy will end as soon as something more shiny swims by, and you pay later when the warm fuzzies wear off and their distractibility kicks back in.
    This coming from a male INFP's perspective.. I totally agree with this, and the rest of the post.
    Personally I'd say we suck at letting another person enjoy the early on fantasies and flighty feelings of "love", but once that's passed that's when you get into the nice gooey center.
    Of course you have to of made it that far to enjoy it..

  4. #44
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Oh come on all this you have to earn it shit. Enfps often hold off judgement and allow you just to be... We enjoy you just as you are. Meet on equal terms and decide with you how far to take the relationship without making you jump through hoops to win the prize. We decide together if it's mutually beneficial... While we both open up and become closer in our relationship.

    This thread bugs me.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #45
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    This thread bugs me.
    Stop reading it then.
    Kidding aha. Sorta.
    Different things work for different people. Just because someone states an opinion it doesn't mean they see it as "thats how the world should be.". Do whatever you feel works best for yourself, who cares what other people prefer? I wouldn't entirely agree with your proposed enfp method but that doesn't mean I think it's wrong either. It's just preference. We are allowed to have those, right? Differences make for a much more interesting world no?

  6. #46
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    It's not even just infps. It's introverts in general with their I'm more special because you have to work for it shit. It's not just this thread you see it referenced all the time. It's annoying. Like we take a long time to decide we like someone and want to be friendly to you so it means so much more than those shallow extroverts who just go around being nice to everyone all the time!! I mean how crass!!

    It's ridiculous.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    It's not even just infps. It's introverts in general with their I'm more special because you have to work for it shit. It's not just this thread you see it referenced all the time. It's annoying. Like we take a long time to decide we like someone and want to be friendly to you so it means so much more than those shallow extroverts who just go around being nice to everyone all the time!! I mean how crass!!

    It's ridiculous.
    [just repped @Lady X a minute ago for her previous post]

    lol. ok. well, i don't think i say that. at least not often. and i'm not sure if ever. at least on here.

    and... well, while i think there's some point to what the introverts say, i think you have an equally sound point.

    in fact, because of a conversation last night, I ended up coming across this old gem of a thread...

    based on it, wouldn't you say there's at least some truth to what @Mia./introverts say?

    i appreciate hearing your perspective on this matter, tho, muh lady -- it's valuable.

    it's a point we don't hear often, and it's one that should be part of the conversation.


  8. #48
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Whereas an INTJ had an opportunity to have something together for several years, then proceeded to profess undying love after I was already married.
    I've had somewhat similar experiences... not "undying love", but surprising admissions of "I was so crazy about you! I'm sad it didn't work out!". And I'm thinking, "Yeah, it didn't work out because you only called me like twice a month, which didn't exactly signal a huge amount of interest". Or I'd get vague invitations like, "We should do X sometime". When is sometime? Saturday, next week, a year from now? I'd say, "Okay, let's do that!" & then expect a date to be named, but then it never was. It was more like, "In the future, I may or may not contact you to follow up on this idea". I seriously went back &forth with this INTJ for like 2 weeks before I just started ignoring him. I've had romantivally challenged INTPs be more consistent & concrete in making plans than that. Although, I admit these interactions weren't exactly spilling over with massive potential, which might make ALL the difference.

    I don't need someone to do cartwheels either, just make a consistent show of interest. I may be slow to warm, but I'd like to think I'm consistent. N-doms in general, regardless of the attitude of iNtuition, can be quite fickle & inconsistent. It's just more obvious with Ne-dom... Double Fi with two introverts is hard too because no one wants to drop the stone face first.


    I think enneagram makes a huge difference. As a 9, my beloved peace, equilibrium, stability, serenity, and security are paramount. I think 9s may be more discriminating and realistic for this reason, but once the subject is vetted, buy-in completely, as opposed to the 4 who might be more wishy washy, emotionally driven, and flighty in their interest.
    No, as a 4 you just have too high ideals & loner tendencies (well, I am sp first), coupled with a tendecy to shame easily.

    I have more to quote & respond to....but I have to work now .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #49
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Easy on Mia, folks. She said things that, on average, make a lot of sense. She just put some ''emphasis'', if you will. Zarathustra's bait worked too well.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #50
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    please. she issued a series of generalizations others found offensive, and later backpedaled to cover her ass.

    and is apparently too much of a coward to defend herself. no love.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

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