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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    An interesting aspect that Oro and I were discussing was the difference between dominant perceiving and dominant judging functions.

    With INTJs, it's very difficult to tell them that their judgment is flawed. This includes me: if you start trying to tell me what I'm "really thinking", or what really motivates me, you're not going to get very far. I know what I think and why I think it. What will get you somewhere is pointing out that the INTJ might be missing information, or looking at existing information in the wrong way. The speculation is that because the leading function is perceiving, and we recognize that our perception is a frequent source of assumption and error.

    The corollary speculation is that lead judgers work the other way: it's easy to call them out on a possibly false judgement, but not a false perception. To a lead judger, saying that you perceived wrong sounds like a cop-out, that you aren't owning up to your incorrect judgment.

    I'm wondering how much these speculations match reality. There might be nothing to it, or it might just be true for lead intuition, or some such.
    This makes a lot of sense, actually. I know with judgments, I’m always open to their testing because the imperative to get it right is overwhelming. With my intuitions, I feel much more certain of the stalwartliness of the various panel of possibilities my Ne has generated, given it is not so much aimed at precision but aggregates and patterns and plausibility. I generally don’t give them as much thought and intense scrutiny, just kind of trusting them.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    An interesting aspect that Oro and I were discussing was the difference between dominant perceiving and dominant judging functions.

    With INTJs, it's very difficult to tell them that their judgment is flawed. This includes me: if you start trying to tell me what I'm "really thinking", or what really motivates me, you're not going to get very far. I know what I think and why I think it. What will get you somewhere is pointing out that the INTJ might be missing information, or looking at existing information in the wrong way. The speculation is that because the leading function is perceiving, and we recognize that our perception is a frequent source of assumption and error.

    The corollary speculation is that lead judgers work the other way: it's easy to call them out on a possibly false judgement, but not a false perception. To a lead judger, saying that you perceived wrong sounds like a cop-out, that you aren't owning up to your incorrect judgment.

    I'm wondering how much these speculations match reality. There might be nothing to it, or it might just be true for lead intuition, or some such.
    This is quite a lovely way of putting things.

    I think this is why the combination of the two can work quite well together if the strengths are leading each other in a dance. The NFP provides a wide variety of possibilities and the NTJ siphons out those that actually make sense helping the NFP to focus while the NTJ gets a chance to expand.

    It's like physics really.

  3. #323
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Each enfp is an individual and we each approach topics in our own way including in relationships with INTJs or any other type. What offends me, doesnt always offend other enfps or influence thier relationships in the same way. I guess I have been with the INTJ for over two years now and been a parent to the little one for five-I dont sense stagnation in any way, actually or even ass kissing. Instead there is a growing depth and sweetness to each and growing honesty over time.
    I suspect this has alot to do with the fact that both of you are relatively mature. Maturity goes far in making any relationship work, regardless of type, and giving perspective to the inevitable disagreements and misunderstandings when they do crop up.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suspect this has alot to do with the fact that both of you are relatively mature. Maturity goes far in making any relationship work, regardless of type, and giving perspective to the inevitable disagreements and misunderstandings when they do crop up.
    +1

  5. #325
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I tend to be heavy on the Te, ‘tis true (sometimes I almost seem to be one or two shots away from breaking out powerpoint), but it doesn’t always fit well with other feelers. The people I surround myself with tend to be NTs, and my husband is an ESTJ, and it tends to work out well for me with them, so the forum is good for me in terms of giving me opportunity for improving my ability to dialogue with other feelers..
    Ah, you are like the beautiful Ms PB, with an ESTJ spouse! ESTJs are so awesome! My boss is an ESTJ and a coworker as INFP-they really are very ying-yang in certain ways.

    I myself also tend to communicate on the Te heavy side and have been surpised a few times when others have said I was "combative" or "bitter" as I just thought I was being matter of fact and thinking. My aplogies at the Fi outburst-in spite of how close enfps are to infps, I suspect we tend to joke about parts of our own psyche, that the other takes very seriously, and in addition, the Ji vs Pe alters how we choose to guide others, thus we risk stumbling across each others Fi at times inadvertantly.

    Then infp I work with is the first infp I have spent much time with, and I spent quite awhile agast at the stuff he would say, till I learned he really was just joking. Now it is very fun, but quite different. He does an "Fi hip check" sometimes on my Te ideas that can be tricky to navigate as well-but helpful to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I have not once said that I think INFP/INTJ is a better match than ENFP/INTJ. I think ENFP/INTJ is a great, if not superb, match. The impetus for the discussion was a comment by someone (who shall remain nameless) that ENFPs were a better match for INTJs, and I was simply trying to show why INFPs were also a good match and had their pros, and why ENFPs maybe weren’t necessarily the obvious perfect choice and also had their drawbacks in terms of the dynamics of the match. There is a ton of devotion and worship to that combination already on the forum, and I was just trying to provide a contrast to it and showcase the case for the INFP underdog. I wasn’t trying to start a holy war. The “vs” type language and maneuvering, including the thread title, was the work of said person who shall remain nameless.
    Do you guys really feel like an underdog? I mean I see people step in and out of the enfp-intj thread and leave nasty, judgemental comments, (not you, mind you, you just expressed an alternate conclusion) and I just dont get why. The point is not that other types cant get along with INTJs at all-INFJs, ISFJs, ESFPs, and INFPs and also ISTPs and INTPs all can have really happy relationhsips with INTJs-they just dont like babbling on endlessly about stuff and endlessly perceiving things the way enfps and intjs do, thus thier threads eventually end. The enfp-intj threads are filled with folks who never actually need to decide anything, so they just go on forever. But I just dont get why anybody cares. Who cares if we ramble endlessly in our thread? Why is that offensive?

    As for "he who shall not be named" I have questions as well...

    EDIT: I also feel ridiculously protective of INTJs even when they dont need my protection-They just seem so delicate at times and so I get kinda bulldogish and mother hennish and want to take care of them and keep people from messing with thier emotions.

  6. #326
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    hello "he who shall not be named".

    so I had this weird thing happen to me last week which reminds me just a bit of the wee bit o' chaos you are creating in this thread.

    On one hand one could say you are just having fun provoking people just to get a rise out of them and cause trouble. Normally I'd be like, seriously? dude that isnt so cool.

    However last week I went on a trip to visit a customer site and got stuck in a meeting with a CIO (ESFP), a VP of IT (INTJ)and a VP (I dunno)of another area and director (an FP of some sort). Going into the meeting it should have been just a requirments gathering and invitation to a beta group meeting, but once there it was like being ambushed.

    The FP director had decided (without our knowledge) that he did not want our product anymore. His VP was supportive of him. The CIO and VP of IT were questioning the move given the costs of transitioning to a new product.

    So the CIO immediately jumps in and starts acting like he is everybody's friend, but then he is jumping all over the place and then actually poking at everyone at the table, in an apparent attempt to incite frustration? He was doing it to both out team and to the internal folks. He played stupid, as I have noted very clever esfps often do, and then would use his feigned ignorance to ask even more questions that were highly provocative, highlighting areas of weakness in all parties. It was extremely dickish at first blush, but then I realized he was playing a game to try and knock folks out of equilibrium and get a better understanding of what the truth in the situation is. In the lens of an esfp, I'd say he was using Te to knowk folks off base, then watching them with SeFi to get a visceral feel for if they are full of shit or not.

    Is that kinda what you are doing or is it something different?

  7. #327
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I vote enfps

    See half way between enfp and intj is the entp. So they took this intj and pulled his heart more to the surace and he transformed haha
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #328
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do you guys really feel like an underdog? I mean I see people step in and out of the enfp-intj thread and leave nasty, judgemental comments, (not you, mind you, you just expressed an alternate conclusion) and I just dont get why. The point is not that other types cant get along with INTJs at all-INFJs, ISFJs, ESFPs, and INFPs and also ISTPs and INTPs all can have really happy relationhsips with INTJs-they just dont like babbling on endlessly about stuff and endlessly perceiving things the way enfps and intjs do, thus thier threads eventually end. The enfp-intj threads are filled with folks who never actually need to decide anything, so they just go on forever. But I just dont get why anybody cares. Who cares if we ramble endlessly in our thread? Why is that offensive?
    Ditto, my wonderings exactly! Who cares?

  9. #329
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    Also while you lot are busy fighting over the INTJs I am going to make with the ENTJs.

    *Steals @Wind-Up Rex*

  10. #330
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    Are there no INTJ woman? Seems like all men are INTJ. Not that I'd fight for anyone.

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