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  1. #311
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Everything is based off of their values and emotions, not mine. When I said lying to themselves, I’m not talking about telling them they aren’t feeling correctly. ( ) I’m talking about them not taking their feelings into account when making decisions.

    I didn’t say stumble in how they feel – I said stumble in the application and connection to it. If anything, I’m talking about utter validation of their feelings and insistence on the elevation of their feelings and values to their proper place in functioning and esteem. What you are describing in terms of coddling and micromanaging INTJs, that is part of the nuts and bolts of the process I am describing. I do that with any TJ.

    Aside from the fact that I wasn’t talking about lying to themselves being about their feelings and instead whether they are taking their feelings into account when making decisions and related scenarios, you’re right, it absolutely can be in error, and one should be completely open to that possibility and exercise caution and discretion when suggesting it and be ready to assimilate any feedback when approaching it. But I would contend that one of the points to being in a relationship is to know each other very deeply so that you can help each other grow, and sometimes that means someone bouncing things back to us or mirroring back if we might be doing something not optimal – like repressing our feelings and not taking them into account when making decisions. I would also contend that part of the tendency to view this and other things related to it as cardinally offensive and impossible is a possible reason why the ENFP/INTJ relationship is sometimes characterized as an ***-kissing fest and prone to stagnation.
    As an INTJ potentially on the receiving end of this approach, I cannot imagine being offended by it as long as the person knows me well enough to have a good chance (not infallability) of being correct, and a willingness to accept and back off if it turns out they are not. This kind of gentle, well-placed, and knowledgeable feedback can be invaluable. I wish I could get more of it IRL.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As an INTJ potentially on the receiving end of this approach, I cannot imagine being offended by it as long as the person knows me well enough to have a good chance (not infallability) of being correct, and a willingness to accept and back off if it turns out they are not. This kind of gentle, well-placed, and knowledgeable feedback can be invaluable. I wish I could get more of it IRL.
    I agree.

    While for a long time I've tried to consider myself more or less an island to myself, I came to learn an interesting truth about 6 months ago, when, over a period of just a few days, a number of people whom I'm very close to, all from very different parts of my life, offered me opinions/advice on some stuff that was going on (and, in almost every case, the advice was completely unsolicited). Hearing them say things that I'd already been independently thinking myself, especially all in conjunction with one another, not only flew in the face of how I'd previously considered myself to operate, but was some stuff that I probably really needed to hear. I'd consider it one of the more important learning experiences in my life.

  3. #313
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying Mia. rephrased it doesnt feel so grating, but even rereading the first post is still....presumptive and conclusion. I suspect it is because you are speaking in a strong Te voice about Fi topics and it feels to me like you are dismissing potential perspectives (Ne FTW). Part of being an enfp (from my perspective) is giving a great deal of emphasis to each individual's understanding of thier own perspective, even if it seems weird or not constructive. I think it is just something in your tone that is not intentional and it strikes me oddly.

    Talking with the intj last night, it makes sense that I am lead not by Fi but by Ne, and value possibilities within a situation, thus I will value the INTJ's peception of thier situation to an even greater extreme that any perceived value mismatch in the situation. Thus if the INTJ perceives a situation/course of action, I'll tend to be hesitant to dismiss that perpsective, even if it is inconsistent wrt my perception of thier value consistency or how they might.may feel-it really isnt any of my business, unless they are are seriously on the edge.

    But then I dont deal much with the 20 yo intj crowd-mine are older and more mature I suspect,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I would also contend that part of the tendency to view this and other things related to it as cardinally offensive and impossible is a possible reason why the ENFP/INTJ relationship is sometimes characterized as an ***-kissing fest and prone to stagnation.
    Use caution in your generalizations and conclusions-I think any notion of one type pair being better than any other type pair has been beaten to bits over the years. (The thread might be served better by removing the element of competitiveness altogether as it creates a nastiness and pettiness, even bullying.)

    My sense of offense is my own, however thank you for addressing, and is highly influenced by my own value set. Each enfp is an individual and we each approach topics in our own way including in relationships with INTJs or any other type. What offends me, doesnt always offend other enfps or influence thier relationships in the same way. I guess I have been with the INTJ for over two years now and been a parent to the little one for five-I dont sense stagnation in any way, actually or even ass kissing. Instead there is a growing depth and sweetness to each and growing honesty over time.

    I think this open endedness to one another's need to continue to perceive is actually why you see so many INTJ-ENFP relationships that work out well in spite of the Ni-Ne diffs or other diffs highlighted.

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Thanks for clarifying Mia. rephrased it doesnt feel so grating, but even rereading the first post is still....presumptive and conclusion. I suspect it is because you are speaking in a strong Te voice about Fi topics and it feels to me like you are dismissing potential perspectives (Ne FTW).
    I tend to be heavy on the Te, ‘tis true (sometimes I almost seem to be one or two shots away from breaking out powerpoint), but it doesn’t always fit well with other feelers. The people I surround myself with tend to be NTs, and my husband is an ESTJ, and it tends to work out well for me with them, so the forum is good for me in terms of giving me opportunity for improving my ability to dialogue with other feelers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Talking with the intj last night, it makes sense that I am lead not by Fi but by Ne, and value possibilities within a situation, thus I will value the INTJ's peception of thier situation to an even greater extreme that any perceived value mismatch in the situation. Thus if the INTJ perceives a situation/course of action, I'll tend to be hesitant to dismiss that perpsective, even if it is inconsistent wrt my perception of thier value consistency or how they might.may feel-it really isnt any of my business, unless they are are seriously on the edge.

    But then I dont deal much with the 20 yo intj crowd-mine are older and more mature I suspect,
    That makes a lot of sense, yeah. I’m past the 20 yo crowd as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Use caution in your generalizations and conclusions-I think any notion of one type pair being better than any other type pair has been beaten to bits over the years. (The thread might be served better by removing the element of competitiveness altogether as it creates a nastiness and pettiness, even bullying.) .
    I have not once said that I think INFP/INTJ is a better match than ENFP/INTJ. I think ENFP/INTJ is a great, if not superb, match. The impetus for the discussion was a comment by someone (who shall remain nameless) that ENFPs were a better match for INTJs, and I was simply trying to show why INFPs were also a good match and had their pros, and why ENFPs maybe weren’t necessarily the obvious perfect choice and also had their drawbacks in terms of the dynamics of the match. There is a ton of devotion and worship to that combination already on the forum, and I was just trying to provide a contrast to it and showcase the case for the INFP underdog. I wasn’t trying to start a holy war. The “vs” type language and maneuvering, including the thread title, was the work of said person who shall remain nameless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I guess I have been with the INTJ for over two years now and been a parent to the little one for five-I dont sense stagnation in any way, actually or even ass kissing. Instead there is a growing depth and sweetness to each and growing honesty over time.

    I think this open endedness to one another's need to continue to perceive is actually why you see so many INTJ-ENFP relationships that work out well in spite of the Ni-Ne diffs or other diffs highlighted.
    I’m sure they are very blessed to have you, and as I said, I think it is a great match. NFPs and NTJs are like peas and carrots… they just go together.

  5. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think this open endedness to one another's need to continue to perceive is actually why you see so many INTJ-ENFP relationships that work out well in spite of the Ni-Ne diffs or other diffs highlighted.
    I think there is truth to this.

    It's interesting, the balance: "calling them on shit" vs "letting them be their own person".

    I also think ESFPs perform the "calling us on shit" function, but, obviously, in an Se-emphasized manner.

    If the ESFP still has a less-than-developed relationship with the inferior, then this can be problematic.

    I suspect the same would probably hold true for INFPs and ENFPs, with respect to their inferiors.

    ETA: it's not just the health of their relationship with their inferiors -- it's their tertiaries as well.

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I choose the INFPs. What the theoretical INTJ chooses is of no interest to me.

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's interesting, the balance: "calling them on shit" vs "letting them be their own person"..
    I think that is a misnomer, though, because the INFP is also letting them be their own person… providing feedback isn't preventing them from being their own person.

    I think the contrast is more along the lines of just going along with whatever interpretation, MO, perspective is being currently held.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I have not once said that I think INFP/INTJ is a better match than ENFP/INTJ. I think ENFP/INTJ is a great, if not superb, match. The impetus for the discussion was a comment by someone (who shall remain nameless) that ENFPs were a better match for INTJs, and I was simply trying to show why INFPs were also a good match and had their pros, and why ENFPs maybe weren’t necessarily the obvious perfect choice and also had their drawbacks in terms of the dynamics of the match. There is a ton of devotion and worship to that combination already on the forum, and I was just trying to provide a contrast to it and showcase the case for the INFP underdog. I wasn’t trying to start a holy war. The “vs” type language and maneuvering, including the thread title, was the work of said person who shall remain nameless.

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I think that is a misnomer, though, because the INFP is also letting them be their own person… providing feedback isn't preventing them from being their own person.

    I think the contrast is more along the lines of just going along with whatever interpretation, MO, perspective is being currently held.
    So then you're saying the INFP approach is better?


  10. #320
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    An interesting aspect that Oro and I were discussing was the difference between dominant perceiving and dominant judging functions.

    With INTJs, it's very difficult to tell them that their judgment is flawed. This includes me: if you start trying to tell me what I'm "really thinking", or what really motivates me, you're not going to get very far. I know what I think and why I think it. What will get you somewhere is pointing out that the INTJ might be missing information, or looking at existing information in the wrong way. The speculation is that because the leading function is perceiving, and we recognize that our perception is a frequent source of assumption and error.

    The corollary speculation is that lead judgers work the other way: it's easy to call them out on a possibly false judgement, but not a false perception. To a lead judger, saying that you perceived wrong sounds like a cop-out, that you aren't owning up to your incorrect judgment.

    I'm wondering how much these speculations match reality. There might be nothing to it, or it might just be true for lead intuition, or some such.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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