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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I choose the INFPs. What the theoretical INTJ chooses is of no interest to me.
    Well, HELLO there. :}

  2. #302
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Those are the judgments made long ago after thorough examination. It's not the case with judgments about other people's specific behavior, especially when it's new. This is why in the day-to-day, we generally won't seem bossy or opinionated; people may even question if we care about anything at all. At worst, this may look like a judgment of devaluing everything, and at worst it is, but often it's really a suspension of any judgment. At best, we seem pretty accepting, easy-going, and willing to ascribe people good motive, especially as we understand the complexity of people, their motives, and what kind of behaviors that can lead to which can easily be misinterpreted. This is why we get pegged naive & sweet, even as we can be cynical & glum too
    I can't say for sure… I think INFPs lean more on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to a fault, because we're notorious for not confronting people & just internalizing it all, sometimes "solving" it in our heads. There may be more awareness than an ENFP of the incongruence of reality with values, and maybe this looks like toleration to people but it's not. Instead, the other person is given the benefit of the doubt or excused, & the INFP questions themselves ("am I being too sensitive?"). The INFP sees the fault in themselves, and that's why they'll sometimes hang around in a bad situation. They're not tolerating as if they have power not to, they're resigning themselves to a reality they think is inescapable & not able to match their ideals.
    Some really good points here.

    I'm baffled that people continue to frame this sort of behaviour in a negative context (ie. we're spineless doormats or over-ingratiating) and that we must have secret grudges we are keeping score of. I always assumed people would perceive it a weakness to be selfish, overbearing, inflexible, and short-fused; and it a strength to avoid and overcome such things. I didn't expect others to view it with scorn or suspicion.

    I like what you said about "solving it in our heads" - that's very much what I seek to do. It's important for INFPs to pick our battles; we need to work out what's worth fighting for and what is something we simply need to adjust to; in fact you could say this is a fundamental part of our evaluative process. And most things in life don't really matter that much; and if things that don't really matter, do end up mattering to me, it's because I'm being too weak-minded or ridiculous to just get over it. I always try to ask myself if the problem comes down to a personal failing (eg. in self-discipline, acceptance, perspective, consistency etc) before I go blaming others.

    But people continue to assume because we are so driven by a highly evaluative function, that we are "judgey" (secretly or otherwise). In reality, it's just as important to us to recognise and let go of non-issues, as it is to fret over genuine issues.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #303
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    As an Ni-dom, this Se data is not easily explainable, although it is very much there. But that being said, I do appreciate the other person needing an explanation. You mentioned before that Fi is like an ancient tree with deep, strong roots. Ni is also like that, except the Ni conclusion/hunch is the exterior tree with the deep, complicated roots being the Se data. Asking for the Se data is asking to describe all of these roots--it's a difficult thing to do, even if it's something we really want to do. I imagine it's as difficult as if someone asked you to describe all your reasoning behind an Fi value.
    I can appreciate that. The issue is only when someone is asking me not to speculate on other ideas.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can appreciate that. The issue is only when someone is asking me not to speculate on other ideas.
    Frankly, I think this has more to do with the Ni dom you have experience with than Ni doms in general.

    I am much more likely to think about what the alternate possibilities are that could explain what happened.

    The point is to get to the truth, not stuck on some false interpretation, so, if I'm missing something, I'd like to know.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yes and no.

    I think part of this may be a difference in demeanor. INFPs are generally quieter, less overtly warm than ENFPs; in short we appear more serious which likely makes what we say seem more serious, as if they are judgments & not just ideas or possible interpretations being tossed around.

    I would totally agree that the typical INFP is more stubborn than the typical ENFP (and this will prove a problem with a stubborn INxJ), but this more about our "visions" of what is good, perfect, etc. Those are the judgments made long ago after thorough examination. It's not the case with judgments about other people's specific behavior, especially when it's new. This is why in the day-to-day, we generally won't seem bossy or opinionated; people may even question if we care about anything at all. At worst, this may look like a judgment of devaluing everything, and at worst it is, but often it's really a suspension of any judgment. At best, we seem pretty accepting, easy-going, and willing to ascribe people good motive, especially as we understand the complexity of people, their motives, and what kind of behaviors that can lead to which can easily be misinterpreted. This is why we get pegged naive & sweet, even as we can be cynical & glum too.
    Ah, Orangeappled, I made a mistake and was not specific enough. You are very correct in that unless the INFP I know is VERY irate, I never even know how he feels about anyone, judgement wise. Where I see the quick judgments are usually in Te matters about the workplace or projects. So if he approached with an alternate or new Te idea, he will often sort of knee jerk dismiss the idea.

    Thank you very much for sharing the above thoughts as they were very enlightening. Seeing from the outside is not the same as experiencing from the inside.

    One of the things I face is a desire to just say to hell with the world...I think this may sort of be like when you "devalue the world". How do you remain optimistic, in spite of the world being at odds with your ideals?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't mean to insult ENFPs, but like most introverts, I think INFPs go a bit deeper (albeit, & are also "narrower"), and this is also why we'll be less fickle than a Ne-dom. Everything is hammered out & ruthlessly examined as we build a valuation. To budge the valuation is hard because it's like trying to uproot an ancient tree with a kiddie shovel, yet people only see the tree & not the deep, strong roots anchoring the whole thing. This is not a lack of open mind; it's like someone who reads a pop-science article claiming an expert in an area who has done extensive research is not open minded for not being swayed by that article.

    If we're talking stands on moral/aesthetic issues in general or ideas for creative projects or something, then yeah, an INFP may have a firm stance they've taken from long ago. This is a common introvert thing, though. You want to subject "reality" to your internal concepts, which is a form of devaluing it, and that will look like a judgment.
    This is probably why Es & Is are more complementary in theory than two of the same….
    I dont think this is an insult to enfps at all-but I think deep isnt the best word to use. I like the term "resolution". Kinda like a microscope has greater and greater resolution, the more powerful it is or like in spectroscopy where you seek to get more and more resolution, in order to interpret data. (sorry nerd metaphor ) So not so much deeper or more strongly held, but more clearly understood and less inconsistency or blurriness. (please add extra words as I dont think I am capturing it clearly.)

    edit-hmm, maybe on second thought it is more precision in the Fi values and more consistency, but also more refinement..I dunno.

    On many of my values I distinctly lack the resolution and refinement that an INFP has. This means that the roots are not nearly so embedded, so I can move them more readily-especially if someones shares with me why my value stance impacts them in a personal way. I am forced to take into account their perspective. It also means I can be flippant or hyper-responsive on very superficial values.

    I also think enfps can (on the negative side) plant a few very rudimentary roots extremely deeply, but then never want to "rationally" evaluate them, as it is uncomfortable. However the roots are still generating hypersensitivity and neurosis. INFPs can be such good advisers to enfps here as you guys can help step us through how to explore those topics and rebuild into healthier value sets.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Frankly, I think this has more to do with the Ni dom you have experience with than Ni doms in general.

    I am much more likely to think about what the alternate possibilities are that could explain what happened.

    The point is to get to the truth, not stuck on some false interpretation, so, if I'm missing something, I'd like to know.
    Are you sure on this one? It sort of sounds like when I try to debate/discuss a topic with an INTJ that they are VERY certain they already know the answer to-then I just get rebuffed and dismissed. Not a new, novel topic-but a tried and true topic.

    Sorta sounds like her INFJ already KNEW the answer, so was dismissing her suggestions and alternate perspectives at the internal motivations of the other person. I have seen a few INFJs, who really were totally convinced that they understood the inner motivations of others-when in reality they had grossly projected their own mindset onto the other person. Maybe it is only something they do when under a lot of stress, as ht is when I noted it in otherwise, very sweet, kind INFJs.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I'm voting INFP, because they seem more likely to call the INTJ on their bullshit rather than engage in the unhealthy INTJ-ENFP mutual ass kissing that happens in threads like these.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This sounds a lot like my hypothesis on why ESFPs are the better choice for INTJs than ENFPs. In that pairing, Se is the driver for "calling an INTJ on bullshit" (not that I don't think your TP mind is highly tainted regarding this matter), which at least makes some theoretical sense, as it's bringing in elements of the INTJ's blindspot, forcing him to reconcile/balance out whatever high-minded imaginings Ni is coming up with with a fair dose of Se realism (which, if an INTJ is balanced, healthy, and developed, he should be doing independently, anyway). What's the greater enabler of this ability for an INFP? How is dominant Fi better at "calling bullshit" than dominant Se, or auxiliary Se? Frankly, I never really have associated INFPs with the sort of tough-minded realism that would be useful for calling bullshit on an INTJ. I associate them with strong subjective opinions which are often high-minded imaginings in and of themselves, so how would these really be helpful for "calling bullshit", as opposed to simply forcing the INFP's highly subjective Fi cognitive bias on the INTJ?

    I disagree with you guys. I sometimes see this funny thing happen between ENTJs and INFPs on forums. It goes something like this....:

    ENTJ: * statement indicating lack of Fi in many ways*
    INFP: "I couldnt help but note that flaming lack of Fi there...
    ENTJ: Are you talking to me? Really? REALLY? WHAT THE FUCK YOU TALKING ABOUT?
    INFP: Why actually yes, and you are full of shit on that point, hmm?
    ENTJ: hmm, well..perhaps I am.

    I am always amazed at the utter balls the INFP has to be calling the ENTJ out on what to me seemed obvious emo danger zone territory. The INFP steps in and just kicks the metaphorical value walls down. I thought maybe the ENTJs tolerate it as it is their inferior? I dunno...

    @jock the motie made a comment awhile back about people who "micromanage others emotions" and I was like WTF, as i didnt understand what he was talking about. However after watching it for awhile, enfps micromanage the shit out of the emotions of intjs. We dont TELL them what to feel, but we coddle the holy crap out of them and are hyper responsive to signs of their displeasure or unhappiness. We actually go way the fuck out of our way to allow them to feel pretty much whatever they want to feel and we tend to cater to it and try and help them feel better, if they seem bummed out. Sometimes it is like we are little bundles of amphetamine flavored Fi optimism, but mostly there is just an obvious awareness, that because I value my Fi space, I should respect their Fi value space.

    Just like I take pride in my Te ideas (for all of its lack of refinement) I make room for the INTJs to feel whatever they feel and I try not to run over it or influence it too much. It is like part of them that should be accepted? There is a VERY distinct abhorrence in the dismissal of their values to me...I may argue my value perspective, but unless they are seriously wrecking havoc, or we have a serious disagreement on value alignment (like me and my ummy over health insurance )they have a right to feel whatever they feel and value without my "correction". Now often those values are totally Se in nauture, so tend to be very knee jerk visceral-if they start to step into my Fi space enough, then I put my foot down and call it out in terms of Te boundaries about "hey, this drives me nuts, can you not do that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    INTJs play bullshit with their Fi. On a regular basis. Contrary to what most people think or suppose, INTJs are not unemotional or lack feeling. They feel very deeply, and it drives much of what they use the rest of their functions to do. They often have a set of values that heavily influences their feeling of mission in life, and heavily influences their emotions. However, despite having this and it performing a huge role in their life and actions, because it is lower in their hierarchy, sometimes they experience a disconnect, fuzziness, or obliviousness to it. They sometimes stumble in application of their own values and emotions. This often results in a lot of dissonance for the INTJ, and screws up their equilibrium, and makes them a less effective individual, and hampers their own self-imposed goals, including their Ni vision.

    One of them being, Fi is very attuned to Fi. We constantly have our feelers out, searching and scanning for a match and congruency between our values and the values of others. In addition, we run analysis on an individual’s values and their actual behavior.

    Enter Ne as the helping function, and INFPs are natural lie detectors. This includes when someone is lying to themselves as well. Often we won’t say anything about it, but just assimilate the information into the matrix. But if the bullshit threshold is reached, or we see someone we love harming themselves or getting frustrated and going in circles, we will engage on this. How an INFP does it will depend on their own preferences and development. With me, it tends to be very Te, albeit gentle and patient, with a desire not to go there if it is truly not welcome. Ne (being an NF) also helps us - in conjunction with the individual - brainstorm a roadmap for troubleshooting and creative solutions to the problem.

    We see the INTJ’s inner drive in terms of their values. We also see their emotions. We see them doing the opposite of what they actually believe, or what they know, even unconsciously, would be in their best interest or health to reach their goals. Or we see them avoiding it because of being overwhelmed and ill-equipped to handle it, causing untold chaos. There is a discrepancy between what they believe, or feel, and even what their Ni and Te would tell them to do, and what they are doing.

    Nah dude. That’s some bull-shee-it.
    ]
    See above how mia is doing what I see the INFP-ENTJ interaction do...and to be honest I find this a thousand times more offensive that her earlier ENFP generalizations. It seems so dismissive and so pretentious to assume one has the "right" Fi solution for another. Who has the right to tell another they have "stumbled" in how they feel? Or to assume one has the right to tell another that they are lying to themselves-if that person feels a certain why, that feeling is not a lie. To assume one can even know that another is "lying to themselves" is an exercise in Ne projection which may be highly in error.

    It all just comes across as "I am so much better at telling you how to do this value thingy, so hush now and just do it this way and dont worry about all the value stuff you had already, because, really, it was so childish and immature."

    Okay now I have to apologize to Mia, as I know that sounded rough. It isnt personal at all to Mia, more a Te WTF on a view I am not getting. I appreciate your honesty and now I am describing my visceral response with the goal of understanding why it strikes me as so "no way jose" in how I would treat my INTJs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Okay now I have to apologize to Mia, as I know that sounded rough. It isnt personal at all to Mia, more a Te WTF on a view I am not getting. I appreciate your honesty and now I am describing my visceral response with the goal of understanding why it strikes me as so "no way jose" in how I would treat my INTJs.
    No apology necessary, I infinitely prefer that approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    See above how mia is doing what I see the INFP-ENTJ interaction do...and to be honest I find this a thousand times more offensive that her earlier ENFP generalizations. It seems so dismissive and so pretentious to assume one has the "right" Fi solution for another. Who has the right to tell another they have "stumbled" in how they feel? Or to assume one has the right to tell another that they are lying to themselves-if that person feels a certain why, that feeling is not a lie. To assume one can even know that another is "lying to themselves" is an exercise in Ne projection which may be highly in error.

    It all just comes across as "I am so much better at telling you how to do this value thingy, so hush now and just do it this way and dont worry about all the value stuff you had already, because, really, it was so childish and immature.".
    I don’t think you understood what I said. Like, at all. Perhaps part of that is my inability to properly convey it. I am not telling them how to feel… I don’t know where you got that. Everything is based off of their values and emotions, not mine. When I said lying to themselves, I’m not talking about telling them they aren’t feeling correctly. ( ) I’m talking about them not taking their feelings into account when making decisions.

    I didn’t say stumble in how they feel – I said stumble in the application and connection to it. If anything, I’m talking about utter validation of their feelings and insistence on the elevation of their feelings and values to their proper place in functioning and esteem. What you are describing in terms of coddling and micromanaging INTJs, that is part of the nuts and bolts of the process I am describing. I do that with any TJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    To assume one can even know that another is "lying to themselves" is an exercise in Ne projection which may be highly in error.
    Aside from the fact that I wasn’t talking about lying to themselves being about their feelings and instead whether they are taking their feelings into account when making decisions and related scenarios, you’re right, it absolutely can be in error, and one should be completely open to that possibility and exercise caution and discretion when suggesting it and be ready to assimilate any feedback when approaching it. But I would contend that one of the points to being in a relationship is to know each other very deeply so that you can help each other grow, and sometimes that means someone bouncing things back to us or mirroring back if we might be doing something not optimal – like repressing our feelings and not taking them into account when making decisions. I would also contend that part of the tendency to view this and other things related to it as cardinally offensive and impossible is a possible reason why the ENFP/INTJ relationship is sometimes characterized as an ***-kissing fest and prone to stagnation.

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    Yessssssssss!!!

    Let's go, ladies!




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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yessssssssss!!!

    Let's go, ladies!



    Oh shut up.


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