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  1. #291
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Are you trying to make the ladies fight over you??

    From what I have observed, always limited of course, some INFPs would enjoy being with an INTJ and some would not. The INFPs who I think might enjoy being with an INTJ tend to be a bit like Mia_infp, with a highly inductive style of communication which tends towards the cloying, evokative style an enfp can have. However I note INFPs pepper thier communication with Fi judgements tempered with Si, thus I suspect a more typical INFP might frustrate an INTJ at times.

    In intellectual convos, I note the Fi need to reach a judgement can conflict pretty badly with the Ni need to keep exploring, but not sure how that plays out long term.

  2. #292
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ I find it really weird that people keep acting as if Fi-dom are more inclined to reach judgments faster than Ni-dom. My real world experience with Ni-dom is not this at all. I'd frequently find I'd want to explore various possibilities & they'd want to stick with one & call it a day. It seems like they jump to a conclusion & then want to find various reasons to explain that conclusion, whereas INFPs explore many conclusions & may slowly narrow it to the most significant/meaningful one. Sure, there's a conflict there, but it's not a matter of less exploring for an INFP.

    With my INFJ ex, he would want to discuss only why something was or how to deal with a future he saw as certain, never that these may not be true. For instance, once he was sure a friend lied to him & only wanted to consider why his friend would lie. I suggested it was not lying, but miscommunication & a matter of his friend truly believing the info he passed on as accurate. No, no, no, that couldn't be it! But guess who was right? ME. This was OFTEN the case, where I'd want to continue finding alternate possibilities & he'd only want to find alternate reasons for one possibility. To me, he was making a moral value judgment MUCH faster, by deciding that this misinformation meant "lying", whereas I wanted to hold off on the judgment & simply explore why the misinformation would occur to begin with before judging it or the person it came from. Although, I think this is more of Ne/Ni conflict than F-dom/N-dom conflict.

    To me, as a J-dom, I see the issue with N-doms as being inconsistent & fickle. It's like one minute they feel/see one way, and the next, that flips. That's hard for a J-dom to deal with; an INFP builds an inner consistency, even as our behavior can be less so. And they may not seem so on the surface, but Ni-dom can be very FICKLE internally. I've noted the difference in the ENFJs/INFPs & INFJs/ENFPs I've known... the ENFJs are friends for life, the few INFPs I've known seem very loyal too, but the INFJs & ENFPs can adore you one minute & then do a 180 the next (or the opposite - dislike you intensely & then adore you later). I don't see that with S-dom though, and theory seems to support this is an N tendency. I don't know what it is about N-dom + N-dom that will combat this tendency, other than the possibility that they have a relationship with a delusion of the other person & never face these inconsistencies in each other. But yeah, that will blow up eventually...

    I think it was Uumlau talking about how INFPs are supposedly "tolerating" things while ENFPs are giving the benefit of the doubt.... I don't think that's true at all, although an INFP may be more aware of when things don't meet their values enough (I guarantee you we often find the fault in ourselves though).

    In my relationships (friendships & romance & familial), I very much gloss over stuff. I've had people actually note that I'm extremely patient & really TOO understanding in romances, more than many women would be. I was not "tolerating", as if keeping track. However, I definitely reach a point where I decide to call someone on their BS (because I realize it's fair for ME to have needs & expectations also), and yep, it can blow up in my face, because the only reason the relationship lasted so long was that I kept excusing it & forgetting about their trespasses. On top of it, when I call them on their BS, I still don't make accusations or moral judgments of them; it's more of a stating of MY needs. How much more understanding & gentle can a person be?

    I'd like to think this refusal to adjust to someone else at all is immaturity & not typical Ni-dom though... Insisting that someone keeps shifting their perspective of your crappy behavior so as to excuse it so you don't have to grow as a person ever is not going to result in a happy relationship with ANY type.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #293
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ I find it really weird that people keep acting as if Fi-dom are more inclined to reach judgments faster than Ni-dom. ..
    You know I think it is less reaching judgements faster and more once a judgement is reached it is hard to sway-just like a Ti dom. The result in a convo can look like an immediate judgment, but the judgement was actually made long, long ago based upon consolidated experience? I dunno, please let me know what this actually feels like internally.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ My real world experience with Ni-dom is not this at all. I'd frequently find I'd want to explore various possibilities & they'd want to stick with one & call it a day. It seems like they jump to a conclusion & then want to find various reasons to explain that conclusion, whereas INFPs explore many conclusions & may slowly narrow it to the most significant/meaningful one. Sure, there's a conflict there, but it's not a matter of less exploring for an INFP..
    I think maybe they stick to the Se data and keep twisting around it with Ni? We present them with alternate Ne prespectives, but nothing can sway the Se data in front of them, except replacement Se data. I dunno how this plays out with an INFJ, but with an INTJ, I typically do whatever I planned already, then show them the result-they have no choice but to then admit I was correct on the particular point. In work environments, this is much easier than trying to weave through the Se data and find an alternate Ni pattern (from my perspective).


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    To me, as a J-dom, I see the issue with N-doms as being inconsistent & fickle. It's like one minute they feel/see one way, and the next, that flips. That's hard for a J-dom to deal with; an INFP builds an inner consistency, even as our behavior can be less so. And they may not seem so on the surface, but Ni-dom can be very FICKLE internally. I've noted the difference in the ENFJs/INFPs & INFJs/ENFPs I've known... the ENFJs are friends for life, the few INFPs I've known seem very loyal too, but the INFJs & ENFPs can adore you one minute & then do a 180 the next (or the opposite - dislike you intensely & then adore you later). ...
    I recognize the fickleness in myself-it is a bit like how you describe the below interaction with your INFJ. It is very easy to feel one way in the moment and get all butthurt, but then later, upon a second consideration from another perspective, go, weeellllll, I guess they did have a point. Or recognize that somebody was just in a bad mod, or just being plain onery in the moment. I think this short term memory deficit allows us to survive pretty well with the INTJs and just blow off the occasional annoyance as just being a part of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This was OFTEN the case, where I'd want to continue finding alternate possibilities & he'd only want to find alternate reasons for one possibility. To me, he was making a moral value judgment MUCH faster, by deciding that this misinformation eant "lying", whereas I wanted to hold off on the judgment & simply explore why the misinformation would occur to begin with before judging it or the person it came from. Although, I think this is more of Ne/Ni conflict than F-dom/N-dom conflict...
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't see that with S-dom though, and theory seems to support this is an N tendency. I don't know what it is about N-dom + N-dom that will combat this tendency, other than the possibility that they have a relationship with a delusion of the other person & never face these inconsistencies in each other. But yeah, that will blow up eventually......
    I do see this in ISTJs, although typically they exert a defensive withdraw into how I "should be" normally rather than the nuerotic assholishness I are am exibiting-thus I can still be their friend later

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think it was Uumlau talking about how INFPs are supposedly "tolerating" things while ENFPs are giving the benefit of the doubt.... I don't think that's true at all, although an INFP may be more aware of when things don't meet their values enough (I guarantee you we often find the fault in ourselves though). ......
    In myself, I totally give people the benefit of the doubt but i ignore a lot of crap as well. agreed to the self evaluation. Do you think the ignoring vs benefit of the doubt varies much across infp-dom?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In my relationships (friendships & romance & familial), I very much gloss over stuff. I've had people actually note that I'm extremely patient & really TOO understanding in romances, more than many women would be. I was not "tolerating", as if keeping track. However, I definitely reach a point where I decide to call someone on their BS (because I realize it's fair for ME to have needs & expectations also), and yep, it can blow up in my face, because the only reason the relationship lasted so long was that I kept excusing it & forgetting about their trespasses. On top of it, when I call them on their BS, I still don't make accusations or moral judgments of them; it's more of a stating of MY needs. How much more understanding & gentle can a person be? ......
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'd like to think this refusal to adjust to someone else at all is immaturity & not typical Ni-dom though... Insisting that someone keeps shifting their perspective of your crappy behavior so as to excuse it so you don't have to grow as a person ever is not going to result in a happy relationship with ANY type.
    Two excellent points. I admit to being a thread fail and not reading through all seven million pages, but the intj Se can be VERY rough and knee jerk at times. Since it is so knee jerk, being able to either ignore and dismiss or to draw a firm line becomes pretty important to retain a good relationship. I suspect the reason an enfp deals okay with it, in spite of not being the perfect esfp match, is that we tend to be pretty reactive and can only deal with so much before we get ansy and then start drawing Te-ish Fi boundaries. but we tend to do so without expecting huge value changes-more just asking for them to stay out of our value space perhaps?

  4. #294
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Geez, guys. Anything about INTJs and an xNFP-type hooking up causes such a great deal of thread furor and a huge page count...
    And it's always the same stuff.
    Speaking from life experience, xNFPs aren't the sugar-and-spice that the thread makes them out to be (though a few can), and neither are INTJs the woman-pleasing master-planner that they so weirdly get a reputation for being online (never met another INTJ in real life).

    </reality check>

    Also, @Zarathustra:
    <---This is not a robot.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  5. #295
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    @Engineer

    It looks enough like one to make a joke about it.

  6. #296
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    To me, as a J-dom, I see the issue with N-doms as being inconsistent & fickle. It's like one minute they feel/see one way, and the next, that flips. That's hard for a J-dom to deal with; an INFP builds an inner consistency, even as our behavior can be less so. And they may not seem so on the surface, but Ni-dom can be very FICKLE internally. I've noted the difference in the ENFJs/INFPs & INFJs/ENFPs I've known... the ENFJs are friends for life, the few INFPs I've known seem very loyal too, but the INFJs & ENFPs can adore you one minute & then do a 180 the next (or the opposite - dislike you intensely & then adore you later). I don't see that with S-dom though, and theory seems to support this is an N tendency. I don't know what it is about N-dom + N-dom that will combat this tendency, other than the possibility that they have a relationship with a delusion of the other person & never face these inconsistencies in each other. But yeah, that will blow up eventually...
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    I recognize the fickleness in myself-it is a bit like how you describe the below interaction with your INFJ. It is very easy to feel one way in the moment and get all butthurt, but then later, upon a second consideration from another perspective, go, weeellllll, I guess they did have a point. Or recognize that somebody was just in a bad mod, or just being plain onery in the moment. I think this short term memory deficit allows us to survive pretty well with the INTJs and just blow off the occasional annoyance as just being a part of them.
    Yeah. I recognize the fickleness in myself too. At least for me, it's definitely about mood and perspective shift. It's hard to avoid that when you have the strong NF all-encompassing moodiness but also N dominant, which means your entire worldview can be changed by minor perspective shifts. I've been learning in my relationships to try to hold off on the judgments, or to just be angry inside my own little head and wait to broadcast it until I'm sure that my current viewpoint is the most externally accurate. I think that establishing Fi/Si "statics" can help stabilize - ie: I'm annoyed that my boyfriend is being distant lately -> Fi/Si I know that my boyfriend is a very intimate and warm person, but he tends to get distant when he's stressed.

    I also think that it's important to note that the F-doms aren't led by N/concepts, like N-doms, so when we N-doms seem intrigued by a person, it could really be the concept of the person, or the concepts that the person is presenting, that we are totally enamored with, and don't really care so much about the person themselves. Kind of cold, I guess, but true. I've gotten bored with people when I've realized they aren't what I was picturing them to be.

    As for how that plays out with an INTJ/xNFP matchup, I'm not really sure. It could either work to the ease or detriment of a relationship, I figure. Though as an N dating an S, I do see how my S keeps me grounded, and I think that has its perks, too. An ENxP-INxJ couple would be very heavily N, and even though they're reciprocally opposite Ns, I could see that pairing being apt to hold mutual delusions and to be rather "ethereal" in a certain sense of being removed from the fabric of reality. Would that be a problem or fun? Again, I'm not sure.

  7. #297
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    You know I think it is less reaching judgements faster and more once a judgement is reached it is hard to sway-just like a Ti dom. The result in a convo can look like an immediate judgment, but the judgement was actually made long, long ago based upon consolidated experience? I dunno, please let me know what this actually feels like internally.
    Yes and no.

    I think part of this may be a difference in demeanor. INFPs are generally quieter, less overtly warm than ENFPs; in short we appear more serious which likely makes what we say seem more serious, as if they are judgments & not just ideas or possible interpretations being tossed around.

    I would totally agree that the typical INFP is more stubborn than the typical ENFP (and this will prove a problem with a stubborn INxJ), but this more about our "visions" of what is good, perfect, etc. Those are the judgments made long ago after thorough examination. It's not the case with judgments about other people's specific behavior, especially when it's new. This is why in the day-to-day, we generally won't seem bossy or opinionated; people may even question if we care about anything at all. At worst, this may look like a judgment of devaluing everything, and at worst it is, but often it's really a suspension of any judgment. At best, we seem pretty accepting, easy-going, and willing to ascribe people good motive, especially as we understand the complexity of people, their motives, and what kind of behaviors that can lead to which can easily be misinterpreted. This is why we get pegged naive & sweet, even as we can be cynical & glum too.

    The values are too abstract as basic concepts to be applied immediately in specific situations. We have to interpret the situation first, as I described with my clash with my INFJ ex. Every situation has too many nuances to be judged the same as the last. An exception may be a pattern in a person/thing built over time. The benefit of the doubt lessens as the doubt gives way to a clear picture. That's true of ENFPs though, too, right? At a certain point you have enough of a pattern to be comfortable with a judgment.

    INFPs may be less likely to re-open an issue that's been settled too, but we've also probably thought more deeply on it, and what people think is "new" info is not new to us or it's easily explained & assimilated.

    I don't mean to insult ENFPs, but like most introverts, I think INFPs go a bit deeper (albeit, & are also "narrower"), and this is also why we'll be less fickle than a Ne-dom. Everything is hammered out & ruthlessly examined as we build a valuation. To budge the valuation is hard because it's like trying to uproot an ancient tree with a kiddie shovel, yet people only see the tree & not the deep, strong roots anchoring the whole thing. This is not a lack of open mind; it's like someone who reads a pop-science article claiming an expert in an area who has done extensive research is not open minded for not being swayed by that article.

    If we're talking stands on moral/aesthetic issues in general or ideas for creative projects or something, then yeah, an INFP may have a firm stance they've taken from long ago. This is a common introvert thing, though. You want to subject "reality" to your internal concepts, which is a form of devaluing it, and that will look like a judgment.
    This is probably why Es & Is are more complementary in theory than two of the same….


    I think maybe they stick to the Se data and keep twisting around it with Ni? We present them with alternate Ne prespectives, but nothing can sway the Se data in front of them, except replacement Se data. I dunno how this plays out with an INFJ, but with an INTJ, I typically do whatever I planned already, then show them the result-they have no choice but to then admit I was correct on the particular point. In work environments, this is much easier than trying to weave through the Se data and find an alternate Ni pattern (from my perspective).
    I guess my issue is, unlike an SP, they don't relate this Se data. It's more like, "just trust me!". An SP will back their stuff up.

    In myself, I totally give people the benefit of the doubt but i ignore a lot of crap as well. agreed to the self evaluation. Do you think the ignoring vs benefit of the doubt varies much across infp-dom?
    I can't say for sure… I think INFPs lean more on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to a fault, because we're notorious for not confronting people & just internalizing it all, sometimes "solving" it in our heads. There may be more awareness than an ENFP of the incongruence of reality with values, and maybe this looks like toleration to people but it's not. Instead, the other person is given the benefit of the doubt or excused, & the INFP questions themselves ("am I being too sensitive?"). The INFP sees the fault in themselves, and that's why they'll sometimes hang around in a bad situation. They're not tolerating as if they have power not to, they're resigning themselves to a reality they think is inescapable & not able to match their ideals.

    I also some ISFPs out there who type as INFP will choose to ignore facts they are aware of rather than give the benefit of the doubt, because playing with alternate possibilities is more Ne. I think of all the xxFPs, an ESFP will call someone on their BS first (my ESFP sister acknowledges THIS is a problem for her in relationships sometimes; she freaks out over something without considering another interpretation, because Se is very much about what's right in from of your face).

    I think 9s ignore more also, where they just choose to not see stuff…4s are more prone to over-empathizing with negative stuff, so they'll excuse it.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I also think that it's important to note that the F-doms aren't led by N/concepts, like N-doms, so when we N-doms seem intrigued by a person, it could really be the concept of the person, or the concepts that the person is presenting, that we are totally enamored with, and don't really care so much about the person themselves. Kind of cold, I guess, but true. I've gotten bored with people when I've realized they aren't what I was picturing them to be.
    This is a better way of putting what I was getting at with this:

    I don't know what it is about N-dom + N-dom that will combat this tendency, other than the possibility that they have a relationship with a delusion of the other person & never face these inconsistencies in each other.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #298
    yap yap yap xenaprincess's Avatar
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    ok, I don't know the whole lingo about tertiary this or dom-that....I am certain that most of this more scientific banter is...more scientific and accurate than what I have to say.

    but knowing my INTJ SO, I cannot see him with an extrovert. It's that simple and basic, and of course, a whole clan of people cannot be represented by one person!

    Being with an extrovert would mean either the introvert is more social or both parties are more independent of each other. My intj doesn't like to be alone, preferring to hang out with usually one or a few people. He can be the life of a party, though, but prefers to nest at home. Being in a group requires flexibility and a little spontaneity, both of which he can muster up here and there but not on a regular basis.

    Some introverts could partner with an extroverts, others could not do it. Yes, you can manage your schedules, but sometimes it's just a basic difference in lifestyle.

    Disclaimer: I don't mind if enfps are better for intjs. enfps can have em!

  9. #299
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    Ladies, ladies:

    Less talky, more...


  10. #300
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I guess my issue is, unlike an SP, they don't relate this Se data. It's more like, "just trust me!". An SP will back their stuff up.
    As an Ni-dom, this Se data is not easily explainable, although it is very much there. But that being said, I do appreciate the other person needing an explanation. You mentioned before that Fi is like an ancient tree with deep, strong roots. Ni is also like that, except the Ni conclusion/hunch is the exterior tree with the deep, complicated roots being the Se data. Asking for the Se data is asking to describe all of these roots--it's a difficult thing to do, even if it's something we really want to do. I imagine it's as difficult as if someone asked you to describe all your reasoning behind an Fi value.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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