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  1. #191
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I trust Coriolis took care of my issues with what you wrote, so I'll just add that, without more context, I can't really make a judgment about that scene.
    I said no more about the movie when first referenced, to avoid derailing the thread further into a discussion of Onegin's likely type. Analyzing the scene and the character would be an essay of its own. I still disagree with the INTJ typing, but suffice it to say that it would be anecdotal "evidence" at best. I'm sure some INFPs legitimately and accurately call out some INTJs on not knowing their own heart and acting contrary to their own best and internalized interests. I'm not sure how reliable or universal that ability is, though. I have had NFPs (not sure E/I) and others misunderstand my goals, motivations, and values often enough to be skeptical.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #192
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    In answer to the question of which would be better, I would choose...

    C) Bullet to the head

    I've been romantically entangled with both types, and neither of those entanglements was a very pleasant experience at all.
    If I absolutely had to stick to the provided options, though, I'd probably say I enjoyed the INFP's "good times" part of the process more than the ENFP's one.
    Then again the INFP fucked me up way more than the ENFP did... so who knows.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    @Orobas types me as 5w6 sp/so. I'd suggest 9w1 and sp/sx as another possibility, but I understand her reasoning. I'm not particularly interested in the enneagram typing at this point: none of it speaks to me other than the sp/sx/so stuff. E.g., type 5 == "nerd": OK, tell me something I don't know.
    Yeah, with INTJs, you usually start with 5w6 and then move out from there.

    I've considered the same typing Oro has come up with, but, whenever I do, I think you myself, "But I dunno, uumlau could be something else."

    I think the direction my mind has been heading has always been towards 9, but that's a pretty rare type for an INTJ, so I always go back to 5w6.

    I recommend you get this book (http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Ty.../dp/0395798671).

    It's way more in-depth than anything you find on the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ah...I just want to throw it out there...that my father...and a friend of mine...are both INTJs thru & thru & thru & thru...and no one will be saying 'you understand me better than I understand myself' or 'I can't hide anything from you'...anytime soon. Big picture stuff? Yes. The individual *feelings* of the individuals close to them...haha no.

    I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with capacity...I think it has to do with focus/interest.
    Once again, I would go to the instinctual variants on this one.

    I'm sx/so, which probably makes me more attuned to these kinds of things.

    I believe the sp's would probably be the least attuned, followed by the so's.

    And most INTJs are sp's, so that might explain why I'm an outlier on this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Then again the INFP fucked me up way more than the ENFP did... so who knows.

  4. #194
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Once again, I would go the instinctual variants for this one.

    I'm sx/so.

    That makes me probably more likely to be attuned to these kinds of things.

    I believe the sp's would probably be the least attuned, followed by the so's.

    And most INTJs are sp's, so that might explain why I'm an outlier on this stuff.
    So where does that leave an sp/sx? Poorly attuned overall, but wanting to become more attuned where it concerns the few people close to us, and finding it hard to do? Sounds about right.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #195
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Once again, I would go the instinctual variants on this one.

    I'm sx/so, which probably makes me more attuned to these kinds of things.

    I believe the sp's would probably be the least attuned, followed by the so's.

    And most INTJs are sp's, so that might explain why I'm an outlier on this stuff.
    Definitely both sp. Dad = 5w6 sp/sx and friend = 5w6 sp/so

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I have read this type of account before, and generally agree, especially with the first part. Any thoughts on how to correct or overcome these tendencies?.
    Apologies for not being of much help, but honestly, my thoughts are usually tailored to the individual… not sure I have any thoughts on how to do it in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ah...I just want to throw it out there...that my father...and a friend of mine...are both INTJs thru & thru & thru & thru...and no one will be saying 'you understand me better than I understand myself' or 'I can't hide anything from you'...anytime soon. Big picture stuff? Yes. The individual *feelings* of the individuals close to them...haha no.

    I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with capacity...I think it has to do with focus/interest.
    Right. Which brings me to…

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This is a very good observation.

    I'm actually very good at picking up on other peoples' feelings.

    And I really can't imagine STJs having anywhere near the capacity for it that we do.

    They're fixated on their own sensation, we're fixated on the concept in our mind that is you.

    My so's have repeatedly said things like "You understand me better than I understand myself" and "I can't hide anything from you".
    .
    I agree NTJs are better than STJs, but frankly, I think INFPs (and possibly ENFPs) blow INTJs out of the water on this. Even if the NTJ is sx primary, which does help immensely. Even in the crappy descriptions of INFP out there it remarks on the INFP’s ability to grasp the psychology of people in ways other types can’t/don’t. Even more so for our partners and the people we focus on, especially if sx primary. Which brings me to..

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Be careful with this, in particular with assuming you know what our values are. Some of them might be quite different from yours, while leading us to take the same actions and decisions. Or, we will share some value with you, but it will manifest in totally different observable behavior. Feel free to call BS on us INTJs, but be sure you have your facts straight (how's that for convolving Fi and Te)..
    I’m sure there are times when we are off base. Usually we will keep our mouths shut about it when we perceive it. We don’t, or at least I don’t, speak up about it until we have a large enough sample size of interaction with the individual to intensify the strength of the conviction and feel we have a very accurate grasp on what is happening (although other INFPs might). This usually means it is reserved for our closest relationships, in other words, people we know very well. We know the baseline for that person. We know their MO well. We know the patterns. We have a sense/impression of the whole. We know when something doesn’t fit.

    We also hold our tongues the majority of the time due to shyness/reserve/gentleness and the emotional investment it takes to engage in this way, and are very open to correction/ new information to synthesize into the picture. But, to address the original point, just as an Se user can make a mistake regarding the INTJ’s relationship to “realism,” but will more often than not catch flaws, INFPs can also be off base, but will more often than not be accurately blowing the bull**** whistle on an INTJ in regard to how their mismanagement of their values/emotions are screwing up their life and vision/goals somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Be careful here, too. An INTJ will have many goals, and will sacrifice lesser ones to achieve greater ones with no hesitation. You might be witnessing such a prioritization exercise.
    Yes, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m probably not articulating it very well. I’m familiar with INTJ pragmatism. There is a difference between the healthy and effective results and display of their pragmatic and utilitarian behavior and the unhealthy, self-defeating, inefficient, and often nihilistic results of suppression/misapplication of/obliviousness to values/emotions.

  7. #197
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Apologies for not being of much help, but honestly, my thoughts are usually tailored to the individual… not sure I have any thoughts on how to do it in general.

    Yes, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m probably not articulating it very well. I’m familiar with INTJ pragmatism. There is a difference between the healthy and effective results and display of their pragmatic and utilitarian behavior and the unhealthy, self-defeating, inefficient, and often nihilistic results of suppression/misapplication of/obliviousness to values/emotions.
    Absent generalizations, then, how about illustrative examples, especially of the highlighted? (I don't interact with many NFPs IRL, so here is my chance to learn from you folks.)

    And yes, not all NFPs, especially ENFPS, know enough to reserve comment until they know the person well. I would suspect you are stellar when analyzing someone very close to you. I have only one (E)NFP in my "inner circle", and sometimes even she gets it wrong.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    I agree NTJs are better than STJs, but frankly, I think INFPs (and possibly ENFPs) blow INTJs out of the water on this. Even if the NTJ is sx primary, which does help immensely. Even in the crappy descriptions of INFP out there it remarks on the INFP’s ability to grasp the psychology of people in ways other types can’t/don’t. Even more so for our partners and the people we focus on, especially if sx primary.
    Yeah, I haven't read the rest of your post, but I would put it something like this:

    I can be highly attuned to peoples' emotions, but it helps if: 1) I am close to them in that way; and 2) I am trying to be.

    Wrt the first: I can still pick up well on peoples' emotions if I am not close to them, but, as I've had less time and opportunity to learn how they work specifically, there's probably a greater chance I'll have erroneous projections and/or miss out on something. That's where the getting-close-to-somebody part matters. Even when I am very close to somebody, like in my last relationship, I noticed, and was disturbed by, a tendency to project certain things onto her emotional palate/intentions that weren't necessarily there. I thought they were there clear as day, but, when I would say them out loud, she would give me the most quizzical look (and not fake, imo -- and trust me, I kept that in mind for a long time), and swear up and down that that's not what was going on. As I said, I was wary of this at first, and kept my eye on it, but as time went along, the same thing happened in certain situations where I couldn't see why she would possibly be lying. Some of the times, alternate explanations were found (provided by her, usually) that were highly plausible (more plausible than my original assumption/hypothesis). Eventually I came to the disturbing conclusion that I must have been projecting this shit onto her, and, despite the extremely real feeling that came along with each of them, I had to start second-guessing my readings to make sure I wasn't doing the same shit all over again. Of course, plenty of other times, I was dead on target, and she's the one who would regularly say, "I can't hide anything from you", so it's not like my aim was completely off. Learning to calibrate to her as an individual, and to accept the potential faultiness of my gauge at certain times, was a good lesson. (And, ftr, I was very aware of, and had been for a long time, the concept of projection, and how I might use it at certain times [including in relationships], but these situations just felt so cut-and-dry, as if there was no possibility that I was projecting, and were taking place despite the fact that I was very aware of what projection is, and how I'd engaged in projection in the past, that it really kinda blew me away).

    As for the second: if I'm not interested and/or trying to gauge it, then it can just fly right by. I think this is one of the biggest differences between us and you: I think you guys are just "on" much more of the time. We're generally just a lot less interested. Add in a lifetime of being so, and it certainly makes you guys more adept at it. Still, I think you guys misfire and assume false shit, a la my explanation above, a good amount of the time too.

  9. #199
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    As for a match-up between an INTJ male and INFP female (which was the subject of the original thread), there would be a double obstacle in that a lot of INFP females seem to like to hang back and be “courted.” I know that description is probably going to cause problems with other INFP readers, but that’s the best way I can put it. I suppose it has something to do with wanting to know if suitors are a good match with their INFP values before committing to a course of action, or something like that. Or just traditional introversion.
    This doesn't bother me at all & it's totally true. As a 4, the bit @Huxley posted is more true for the reasons for this though. 4s want to be "saved", validated, & fawned over a bit. When someone has to come to you, then it accomplishes that. This soothes the 4's shame, whereas the vulnerability of pursuing someone can trigger it.

    ...the INFP’s traditional Ne approach: open-ended, playful, wait-and-see, I-want-to-be-courted. If anything, INTJs seem to need to be courted in return: They need the INFP to put on a Te facade and show that they (INFPs) can keep up or at least not be turned off by an organizational, results-oriented approach to the world.
    I agree that both wanting to be courted is the issue, and the main one in my eyes. I don't think it goes much beyond that. After that, it's more like personal preference, compatibility beyond type, individual attraction, etc.

    I'm not sure if this is about Te & Ne though, so much as two introverts. Maybe it is a Fi matter (although you'd expect the opposite & see the opposite in the other xxTJ types), because my experience with xxFJ men is they WILL pursue. So what's the difference with INFJs & INTJs? Since this is a matter of romance, the realm of feeling, I think INTJs are less comfortable overtly expressing a personal valuation of someone else (which a romantic pursuit amounts to), just like most Fi types are. This is less pronounced in ExFPs because they are extroverts, less so with the Te-dom who have inferior Fi, and less so with ISTJs because Si has that nice storehouse of "what is sure in reality" to call upon. But INTJs & INFPs lack that; neither the INTJ nor the INFP wants to be vulnerable first and say, "Hey, I like you!" because too much doubt is clouding whether this is a good idea or not. If you can create an opening to that impasse, then it might work out though, because now you have someone who is okay with a lack of demonstrativeness.


    An INFP guy might be able to win an INTJ woman. That is, an INFP guy may be willing to adopt a good Te facade and have an ethic that “you have to play the game in order to get the prize,” i.e. be wiling to be a little more forward and do some courting. And an INTJ woman may have learned to put on facades to soften or mask her traditional Te approach. INFP males are taught by the world to “man up” a bit, and INTJ woman are probably taught that they need to be more feminine. So this might be a possible match-up.
    In almost all the INFP male + INTJ female threads I have seen (and I've seen many, because several occur every month in another INFP only forum), it's the opposite. This pair happens because the INFP male finally gets pursued in the way few women will do. The INFP just has to channel Johnny Depp & not Mr. Rogers.

    Obviously any two types can get along. But many INFPs are pretty phobic of Te. That’s going to be a big obstacle. So in the end, I can anticipate an interaction pretty much like Zarathustra describes in the quote at the top of this post: That is, the girl is going to feel bruised by a lot of Te energy, and the guy is going to get put off by the lack of clear results.

    Alternatively, there might be INTJ males who are willing to learn to put on facades to soften or mask their traditional Te approach and who might be willing to court an INFP female as needed (i.e., via Ne or a good facsimile thereof). I think it would be a fun challenge for the right INTJ male. But in practice I haven’t really seen that happen.
    I keep hearing INFP women saying that they want someone who can be direct & clear. Personally, passivity in a man is a massive turn-off to me. I think I also like to be pursued partly because it confirms this person is NOT passive. As a 4, inertia is maddening too. (IMO, Te is mainly problematic when it echoes the INFP's Te, which is an overly critical internal voice & a brush-off of others' feelings as invalid).

    I think Te can be an advantage here, then. I think some INTJs forget Te in courting because fweelings overwhelm them, and with Fi, that means withdrawing & not expressing them. That's pretty much what all INTJ threads about dating sound like - "OMG, I like this girl & I don't know what to dooooo! I'm just going to post here & pine away & analyze her actions into infinity because I don't know how to interpret things like FWEELINGS, and in the meantime she will lose interest & I'll have lost my chance." It's a Ni-Fi paranoid, confuzzled loop. They need to turn the Te back on - identify the objective, make a plan, carry it out, WIN.


    Quote Originally Posted by xenaprincess View Post
    I get you. But some INFPs are really, really sensitive, and some INTJ's tell it like it is in the most brutal way.
    (Disclaimers abound!)

    After the first dinner I cooked for my INTJ (spinach lasagna), he dropped his fork in the bowl, stood up and declared 'I don't like it!' and proceeded to make himself a bowl of cereal. Yowch.

    Some INTJ's just don't pussyfoot around or consider...feewings.
    Eh, my INFJ ex would pull stunts like this (IMO, it's Ni trying to control/limit exposure to external sensory stuff - "Se stuff"), as he was both a picky eater & liked to cook & was threatened by anyone else who cooked. It would irritate me & I'd think he was rude, but I wouldn't break into tears (stuff like that doesn't affect me that way; it has to be an attack on me as a person for me to be wounded). I'd be more like, "There's a McDonald's on the corner; help yourself. Next time, you cook, and BTW, I like my filet mignon medium rare, so make sure you get it right."

    When he got sick of eating out (and paying for it) or cooking himself, then he'd eat my food without complaints, but would still never offer praise & barely a "thanks". This is the sort of annoying little thing you can get past if more important things are good, IMO. Other times, it's a sign of things to come in every matter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This sounds a lot like my hypothesis on why ESFPs are the better choice for INTJs than ENFPs. In that pairing, Se is the driver for "calling an INTJ on bullshit" (not that I don't think your TP mind is highly tainted regarding this matter), which at least makes some theoretical sense, as it's bringing in elements of the INTJ's blindspot, forcing him to reconcile/balance out whatever high-minded imaginings Ni is coming up with with a fair dose of Se realism (which, if an INTJ is balanced, healthy, and developed, he should be doing independently, anyway). What's the greater enabler of this ability for an INFP? How is dominant Fi better at "calling bullshit" than dominant Se, or auxiliary Se? Frankly, I never really have associated INFPs with the sort of tough-minded realism that would be useful for calling bullshit on an INTJ. I associate them with strong subjective opinions which are often high-minded imaginings in and of themselves, so how would these really be helpful for "calling bullshit", as opposed to simply forcing the INFP's highly subjective Fi cognitive bias on the INTJ?

    Everyone else in here keeps on talking about INTJs and their Te-harshness/bluntness/realism. What exactly are you talking about that needs to have bullshit called on?
    The Se mindset is not any less biased than another. Se types may be called "realists", but this is based on the bias that reality is the external, physical world experienced via the senses & acquired facts. Are not other types conscious of other aspects of reality, and are these aspects not just as significant? Each type's preference is their filter for seeing reality, and that filter tends to make them focus on certain areas of reality more than others (ie. Se - 5 senses in the moment vs Fi - fundamental moral/aesthetic value outside of external cultural/time bounds), giving them an incomplete view. Jung said something to the effect that ALL of the functions are required to see reality as it is, which no one has in equal measure, and so everyone is prone to massive bias & this creates misunderstanding with people, but can also mean we need others to balance us out with their take on reality.

    Is a Se-dom mind more capable of balancing a Ni-dom mind? Well, if you're a socionics fan, yes, because their idea of compatibility is making up for those "blind spots"; similar idea with the anima/animus theory (getting in touch with the repressed parts, blah blah blah).

    On the other hand, compatibility can also be a matter of happiness & being on the same page so as to accomplish things & not constantly be battling out over opposite takes on life, etc.

    The advantage of an ExFP is they will pursue, so the INTJ can return to Ni-Te equilibrium in the meantime, after tert Fi settles down a bit. I think it's a rude awakening for the ExFP when the Te face goes back on though (I see this in threads a lot too; the previously coy, mysterious INTJ is now being an ass to the ExFP who is all hurt about it; and they seem to get hurt more easily than IxFPs). I've seen something similar with my ESFP sister & the many ISTJs she's dated; it's all fine & dandy until the ISTJ has a will of his own again.

    Anyhow, what I think INFP will call BS on is emotional obtuseness; and while an ExFP may easily do the same, I think INFPs are better at shaming people effectively . ExFPs go off with eloquent rants that inform people of what-is-what, but INFPs make simple quiet statements and/or ask thought-provoking questions. The latter gets dismissed a lot by T types as emotionalism, whereas the former can carry more weight because it's expressed with lines of reasoning over making people "see". The difference then is - INFPs are dominant RATIONAL types, but INTJs are not & neither are ExFPs. This brings a different kind of balance. When it comes to rational reasoning, I think INFPs have an edge on ExFPs, although ExFPs are no doubt more persuasive in other ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The Se mindset is not any less biased than another. Se types may be called "realists", but this is based on the bias that reality is the external, physical world experienced via the senses & acquired facts. Are not other types conscious of other aspects of reality, and are these aspects not just as significant? Each type's preference is their filter for seeing reality, and that filter tends to make them focus on certain areas of reality more than others (ie. Se - 5 senses in the moment vs Fi - fundamental moral/aesthetic value outside of external cultural/time bounds), giving them an incomplete view. Jung said something to the effect that ALL of the functions are required to see reality as it is, which no one has in equal measure, and so everyone is prone to massive bias & this creates misunderstanding with people, but can also mean we need others to balance us out with their take on reality.

    Is a Se-dom mind more capable of balancing a Ni-dom mind? Well, if you're a socionics fan, yes, because their idea of compatibility is making up for those "blind spots"; similar idea with the anima/animus theory (getting in touch with the repressed parts, blah blah blah).

    On the other hand, compatibility can also be a matter of happiness & being on the same page so as to accomplish things & not constantly be battling out over opposite takes on life, etc.

    The advantage of an ExFP is they will pursue, so the INTJ can return to Ni-Te equilibrium in the meantime, after tert Fi settles down a bit. I think it's a rude awakening for the ExFP when the Te face goes back on though (I see this in threads a lot too; the previously coy, mysterious INTJ is now being an ass to the ExFP who is all hurt about it; and they seem to get hurt more easily than IxFPs). I've seen something similar with my ESFP sister & the many ISTJs she's dated; it's all fine & dandy until the ISTJ has a will of his own again.
    Will get to the above later.

    You lost me at "Se is still biased" because, yes, obviously, I know that.

    There were other parts further down that were good, but I really want to respond immediately to this last paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Anyhow, what I think INFP will call BS on is emotional obtuseness; and while an ExFP may easily do the same, I think INFPs are better at shaming people effectively . ExFPs go off with eloquent rants that inform people of what-is-what, but INFPs make simple quiet statements and/or ask thought-provoking questions. The latter gets dismissed a lot by T types as emotionalism, whereas the former can carry more weight because it's expressed with lines of reasoning over making people "see".
    This is all phenomenal.

    This is the kind of stuff I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The difference then is - INFPs are dominant RATIONAL types, but INTJs are not & neither are ExFPs. This brings a different kind of balance. When it comes to rational reasoning, I think INFPs have an edge on ExFPs, although ExFPs are no doubt more persuasive in other ways.
    This, however, is crap.

    Jung's use of rational/irrational is the dumbest thing I've seen in all typology.

    Yes, ENTPs and INTJs are "irrational" types, entirely because of their dominant function.

    Keirsey (who I'm no fan of either) put them in "The Rational" temperament for no good reason whatsoever.


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