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  1. #21
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lost View Post
    I know exactly what you're saying unfortunately. From where I'm coming from, this folks are like unintentional psychopaths.

    1 and 4 I think it would be better for them and everyone around to be quiet and not say anything. I don't know what's going on in their heads when they say such things. They shock everyone. I wish it was funny or logical like it is sometimes to them but it's just VERY akward. It's above brutal honesty, almost like complete lack of social intelligence. It's like watching grown ups acting like nuts but in a totaly bad way. I feel embaressed for them. They can hurt others feelings and be oblivious about it. But the switch you're talking about is what makes them hard not to love..
    I think it is total lack of an Fe filter...I have had a lot of interesting discussion with @Jaguar about if some enfps can really use Fe or not. I do know we can use Te to memorize social patterns to a certain extent and that, since we are motivated by Fi to (mostly) be kind, we try to behave reasonably. However perhaps if Nardi strapped his EEG on so/sx enfps, he'd find they really are utilizing some of the parts of thier brains that the FJs do. I really dont know.

    I have no Fe filter, personally, so often I do exactly what you say-say nothing. Thus the introverted apperance.

    Quote Originally Posted by lost View Post
    2 and 3 yes and sounds like OCD. Maybe they're trying to escape from what is going on inside them, like what's been said in 1 and 4.
    I think you have a good suggestion with the OCD like behaviors. I tend to link them back to inferior Si perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by lost View Post
    Obviously I find it hard to be around them and avoid them eventhough I know they are not bad people just immature on a whole new level. A lot of people do this to them which it understandable as they can pretty easily make you hate them. But I don't think they deserve it.
    Hate them? Not at all, I actually really enjoy them-they feel like extroverted INTJs. Once you recognize that thier bluntness is unintentional and isnt personal, even when it inadvertantly is, I find I just accept them as being who they are. It is actually REALLY nice to deal with them in some ways, because the convos are all about the problem at hand and nobody's ego gets involved, no hurt feelings, so you can hammer like crazy on ideas, with no resentment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    With the exception of stuttering, this just sounds like ENFP's in Ne-Te loops. I'm in a bit of this funk now, so threads like "How to use Te without being a jerk" are really interesting to me. But to say that there are ENFP's that just are this way, like permanently.. I'm not sure if I agree with that. People in Ne-Te loops do look a bit weird though.
    So do ENFP's with good access to all functions, lol.
    Most of these folks that are in this category are older men, 40 plus. I do wonder if it is an endpoint of sorts...the NeTe is a serious business face, then they put back on the ridiculous goof face, then back to the serious business face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Orobas, do you have any thoughts on why there would be such a clusterf*ck of unhealthy ENFPs in your workplace? (I'd love to know what kind of HR / Psych screening test is skewing the results to uber ENFPness.)
    Hehehe, do you really think they are unhealthy or are they just weirdos? They dont seem to do the damage that an NeFeTi does to other people. They seem to be fairly happy and they seem to be fairly competent-people just think they are weirdos.

  2. #22
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I agree these folks are totally not entps. An entp can be piercing, but typically they are very deliberate when they do so (ignoring inadvertant debating when younger) and not overtly blunt and blundering in thier speech.

    I have always felt that Somatic Narcissism aligns very nicely with SeFeTi and Cerebral Narcissism aligns very nicely with NeFeTi. Having spent a great deal of time studying a particular entp man who was NeFeTi, it strikes me that it was not simply a choice for him to "not be self-centered". His entire mindset was altered and in his mind his worldview seemed very reasonable.
    What's the difference between somatic and cerebral narcissism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I recently began working with a new company in which they give verious sorts of screening tests to all applicants. The result is about 70% ENFPs.

    The increased concentration allows for a lot of fun observation of how many shades of neurotic enfps can really be under stress, but I also have had a chance to observe the much more Te sided ENFPs. I suspect these guys are sp/sx as the so/sx enfps have a VERY different feel to them (sorta like cuddly.honest, used car salesmen).

    Things I notice:

    1. Very poor social skills at times-totally oblivious about ettiquette-Fe blind. Thy will vary from being very silent and watching and then just blurt out inapproiate things. Then they turn on the silly switch and can become very goofy and silly, sweet.

    2. Hyperanalytical, watching everything, tendency to fixate on certain types of information

    3. Obsessed with patterns

    4. Rude, excessively blurt, tend to stutter on words.

    5. They look and act like STJs most of the time, but really strange goofy ones.

    Have you guys seen these folks around?
    Yep. I know one who tested ENFP and also agrees with that typing. At first I thought there is no way she could be ENFP because she can be overly rude and blunt. Add to that someone who can be a stickler for certain rules and things must be a certain way. So I figured she was just another mistyped TJ type. Now that I think about she could be ENFP with a particularly well developed Te. She does have strong Ne and might in a Ne/Te loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I think that @Elfboy fits your description to a T.
    I think so too.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    What's the difference between somatic and cerebral narcissism?
    .
    Both are defined by sense of grandiose elitism and a feeling of being socially more elite and better than other people-more deserving. They also tend to exclude people who dont support thier self notion from being around them-extreme shunning of others. Somatic NPD is foucsed on things you have/own/how good you look. All people place some value in this stuff, but someone with NPD takes it to an extreme. Cerebral NPD takes this elitist notion and applies it to intelligence. There is a very real fixation on how clever they are. In reality, thier ideas can be quite questionable but they never really expose enough of them to allow for a full critique. I knew a man who likely would have qualified as cerebral NPD. He could be SO VERY SWEET and cloying, with extremely heavy Fe usage. Like he was starving for affection and attachment. But he used people terribly and then would drop them instantly, was obsessed with women. He also created so much conflict in my workplace due to creation of political battles and it was only after a year that we all understood he had never actually done any work-he seemed to feel above doing the actual work. It was like...like he felt the Fe conversations were the work, rather than the actual work? I dunno, very odd guy.

    The NeTe folks dont seem to do this level of damage to others. The tend to take on extra work, rather than shrug it off and they tend to absorb blame. They do a lot of monday morning quarterbacking and can be prone to micromanaging. The "stutter" I think is something I noted in the "I'm sorry" thread. I think they cant figure out things to say, as they are driven to be authentic, so they start to say something and then stop, trying to figure out what they should say, then start again.

    Instead of being sweet like NPD, they can appear cold and distant
    Instead of being manipulative like NPD, they can appear hesitant to engage in interactions at a personal level at all
    Instead of being honey-tongued, they are stutteringly silent
    They do feel like they can "see" things other people cant, so there is a sense of cognitive superiority at times, but it is typically in very narrow slices related to thier area of expertice.
    They are self-centric, and inconsiderate of others at times, but not out of disdain as in NPD-more just obliviousness.
    If you get them to break into the goof mode-then they can be oddly sweet, but it is almost always 1:1

  4. #24
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I'd say the ENFPs are a split across a couple of different sub-types..maybe 20% NeTe sp/sx, 10% NeFiTe so/sx and 60% NeFiTe sx/so.
    Orobas, can you define the differences between

    - NeTe sp/sx,
    - NeFiTe so/sx, and
    - NeFiTe sx/so.

    I know on an intellectual level what the various Enneagram subtypes are, but I've never seen them paired with the JCFs like this before and I find it fascinating.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #25
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hehehe, do you really think they are unhealthy or are they just weirdos? They dont seem to do the damage that an NeFeTi does to other people. They seem to be fairly happy and they seem to be fairly competent-people just think they are weirdos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Both are defined by sense of grandiose elitism and a feeling of being socially more elite and better than other people-more deserving. They also tend to exclude people who dont support thier self notion from being around them-extreme shunning of others. Somatic NPD is foucsed on things you have/own/how good you look. All people place some value in this stuff, but someone with NPD takes it to an extreme. Cerebral NPD takes this elitist notion and applies it to intelligence. There is a very real fixation on how clever they are. In reality, thier ideas can be quite questionable but they never really expose enough of them to allow for a full critique. I knew a man who likely would have qualified as cerebral NPD. He could be SO VERY SWEET and cloying, with extremely heavy Fe usage. Like he was starving for affection and attachment. But he used people terribly and then would drop them instantly, was obsessed with women. He also created so much conflict in my workplace due to creation of political battles and it was only after a year that we all understood he had never actually done any work-he seemed to feel above doing the actual work. It was like...like he felt the Fe conversations were the work, rather than the actual work? I dunno, very odd guy.

    The NeTe folks dont seem to do this level of damage to others. The tend to take on extra work, rather than shrug it off and they tend to absorb blame. They do a lot of monday morning quarterbacking and can be prone to micromanaging. The "stutter" I think is something I noted in the "I'm sorry" thread. I think they cant figure out things to say, as they are driven to be authentic, so they start to say something and then stop, trying to figure out what they should say, then start again.

    Instead of being sweet like NPD, they can appear cold and distant
    Instead of being manipulative like NPD, they can appear hesitant to engage in interactions at a personal level at all
    Instead of being honey-tongued, they are stutteringly silent
    They do feel like they can "see" things other people cant, so there is a sense of cognitive superiority at times, but it is typically in very narrow slices related to thier area of expertice.
    They are self-centric, and inconsiderate of others at times, but not out of disdain as in NPD-more just obliviousness.
    If you get them to break into the goof mode-then they can be oddly sweet, but it is almost always 1:1
    So what you're saying is... ENTPs do more damage when in loops than ENFPs? Is that correct?
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  6. #26
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Orobas, can you define the differences between

    - NeTe sp/sx,
    - NeFiTe so/sx, and
    - NeFiTe sx/so.

    I know on an intellectual level what the various Enneagram subtypes are, but I've never seen them paired with the JCFs like this before and I find it fascinating.
    oh, ha, that is just how i tend to clump them to be honest. @Elfboy recently had a thread where most of the enfps said the descriptions dont feel right. There seem to be different variations on the enfp theme. For me roughly, the above groupings are sorta okay, but they are just a real sketchy start. For instance I didnt even know if these NeTe folks I was seeing were legit until I posted the thread-and other people have seen them as well.

    Roughly, please give a lot of feedback and your corrections which would be delightful:

    NeTe types seem to have an sp/sx social type. I think I have described them pretty well so far, so wont rehash.

    NeFiTe so/sx folks feel really easy going and friendly and smooesy. The men can feel a bit TOO friendly, even sleazy, oddly evasive. They seem to be using Te to plan but it is hidden under a faux-Fe interaction style that can be really Ne and tend to blow off logical objections. This may sound like a negative description, but I find these folks tend to clash most in terms of value alignment with myself, especially the type 7's. Instead of being direct and dealing with things head on, they can use highly inductive communication techniques to lure others in. They also come across as snotty and arrogant and dismissive of others. I work with a young guy right now who is like this and he spends a lot of time smoozing with executives, but looks like an ass. I worked with a COO like this. He was known as the "silent assassin" at a 50,000 person company as he was so nice as he laid you off-he terrified people. Maybe these are just type 7s? (although you dont strike me as being this way, Ms Te warrior! )

    NeFiTe sx/so- First I think this is too broad a clump and could suck wrt being a correct classification system and I dont think my "sx/so" is really correct at all. This is basically the rest of enfp-dom (Ha!) running the continuum from young kids who are still pretty NeFi to older folks in the workforce who are very serious and are NeFiTe. It could use refinement.

    Hmm...

    NeFi sx/sp could describe folks with borderline personality disorder.

    (Sorry ^^ pretty lame )

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    So what you're saying is... ENTPs do more damage when in loops than ENFPs? Is that correct?
    well...I am very much thinking aloud and jotting down ideas, so dont take them too seriously. I dont think it is a "loop", as much as a permenant formation of a personality sub-type through external pressure at a young age? And it may very well be that if you drop one of these NeTe folks into an Fe social group, they would cause a great deal of damage as they blunder about inadvertantly. If Fe is what holds the group together, and they Te the crap out of it, then they could be just as bad as an NeFeTi type person in a high Te group. I would actually love to hear other's experiences with this and how they perceive these folks to cause damage. @lost said they seemed psychopathic...why is that exactly?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I would actually love to hear other's experiences with this and how they perceive these folks to cause damage. @lost said they seemed psychopathic...why is that exactly?
    Psychopaths wear mask of sanity. I'm not saying the guys we're talking about are insane. But they seem to have in abundance the very traits most desired by normal persons. And that very partially but still sort of fits the psycho definition. Read about it. I'll come back to it when I found time.

  8. #28
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    @Orobas You mean ENFPs who seem to lack/not use a lot of Fi? Or that it's still obvious they use Fi, but the Ne and Te just come so clearly to the forefront? If the latter, quite a few ENFPs seem like that to me.

    It seems that you meant both, because you listed NeTe and also NeFiTe kinds.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  9. #29
    Junior Member erikric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I recently began working with a new company in which they give verious sorts of screening tests to all applicants. The result is about 70% ENFPs.
    Sounds like a real fun way of getting nothing done

    I hope you guys are in the business of making and selling ideas, otherwise I can't see how such a constellation of people could be profitable.

    I do recognize a lot of the things you mention. It has gotten better with age. I shut up more now, and don't insult people when I try to be funny as much as I used to.

  10. #30
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I think that @Elfboy fits your description to a T.
    Haha. No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Every applicant is prescreened with an abstract IQ test, pattern recognition test and then a personality screening test of unknown categorization-to assess for values. Only after poassing that do they get an interview. Certain positions seem to have particular attriutes of intorversion/extroversion that are being sought out as well. I spoke mistakenly-for dev roles it is a mix of INTJs, INTPs, then INFPs. For everything else, it is about 70% ENFPs.

    I'd say the ENFPs are a split across a couple of different sub-types..maybe 20% NeTe sp/sx, 10% NeFiTe so/sx and 60% NeFiTe sx/so.
    Ooh immediate thoughts:

    The ENFP personality is linked with cognitive strengths (the IQ test) but in any case you employer just likes thee types for those roles so seems them out. Another possibility is self selecting. What roles are the ENFPs? Also, people may self type on the test to better fit what they think the employer wants.

    When my friend did the Myers in nursing school she was the lone INTP in a sea of ESFJs. I think that was also a case of the three ^^ factors above.

    I've been thinking more about your "Te ENFP" etc. inquiries on the board and I think now that some of the ENFPs you're speaking of are stressed or otherwise environment (nature vs nurture) example of ENFPs who "grew up" in a particular corporate culture that has no place and no pity for soft wuvy duty hippies.

    I have 2 female ENFP friends who are very successful in their careers in corporate/tech/academia/business. They are bossy and in charge but still very ENFP. One would wear flip flops and bring green smoothies and teach yoga to her investment/corp accounting something something firm. The other works in tech so has a less orthodox corporate culture on the surface but she worked her way up from being a lowly temp by being extremely bossy (Te) and is now a project manager of sorts.

    Isn't agent furring a boss lady too? Where are you @agentfurrina (<-- prolly did not spell her name right)

    Those two friends are very socially well adjusted and popular though. They succeeded partly because of not in spite of their people skills.

    I think for ENFPs who have this weird Jekyll and Hyde personality and the things you mention, is it grossly unfair/inaccurate to say those people while technically well suited to their jobs just weren't cut out for the corporate environment? It's like sticking a square peg through a circle or vice versa, this is the best they could do.

    I had an ENFP boss (very bad, she fits into your description more or less) and remember incidents with 2 other ENFPs who I know IRL and act like they are so nice and friendly but I had email convos with both about volunteering or work stuff and my impression was "wow what a bitch" in both cases. (1 guy, 1 girl). I dropped both from my "list of acquaintances" afterward. It's like all of a sudden they lose all ability to be even be civil and get incredibly rude. Personally I think thats weak and shows a lack of self integration.

    ENFJs can flip fast but with them the anger or admonishment seems organic. It's believable. With an ENfP who developed specifically for work and not life (if that makes sense) it seems bizarre and extremely off putting.

    I think if you've been forced to develop and use your Te and completely suppress your "fun carefree sensitive side" which is a big part of your personality and never really learned or developed a true eye for social context and rules and merely learned to mimic (again adapting to corporate culture), then yeah, you'll constantly be putting your foot in your mouth.

    However, I think those kind of ENFPs are a special breed. Most of the ENFP females I know are very diplomatic. Then again, the ENFPs I know are more of the hippy/community organizer variety. It's a different culture, different values, different skill set developed. Also no doubt attracts different ENFPs (mostly)

    Phew! So how's that for an answer? :P
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