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  1. #71
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This is a general INFP state, in other words, under all circumstances. Under the circumstances you mentioned it goes from bad to worse, but it is never better than 'bad'.
    A circumstance would have never happened were it not for it being good. So, it goes from good to bad. When, precisely? When the INFP begins to stand up for her values. You say INFPs don't know what they want, but what you see may be the result of the conflict between a desire to keep something of great value good (despite, in my example, his being a very difficult person when he decides to be) and a need to preserve the self (from the unpredictable pain inflicted by the other). Why are these two values mutually exclusive? They aren't, but they can be with two people with avoidant inclinations, which can be overcome with courage.

  2. #72
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Bluewing, wouldn't the "cut finger" example be more indicative of attunement to the Extraverted Sensing function in the MBTI model?

    Despite sharing a common basis (and, often, names) with those of MBTI, the terms you use in supporting your argument seem to be idiosyncratic.
    Sensation gives us accurate perceptions of the external world. This tends to be highly conducive to a very realistic view of the world.

    However, we should note that Sensation is a perceiving function. It does not give one a clear-cut perspective, it only provides impressions which need to be organized accordingly in order for a perspective to be concocted.

    Thinking on the other hand is a rational function. It is concerned with the basic logical analysis of the matter. Thus, if one wishes to understand things for what they are, quite obviously one needs to think about them very carefully, as the understanding does not occur on its own endeavor. In other words, most of us, especially dominant Sensing types( a claim I make in support of why Thinking is more conducive to a clear perspective), appears to know things by default.



    Let me know if I have misunderstood your question. You seem to be addressing my earlier claim that Thinking is what you need in order to know what you want, you suggest that Sensation is a more significant requirement. In this post I have endeavored to show that this is not so.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #73
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Actually, I have taken part in more than one thread where the NTs confessed they frequently felt a deep sense of loneliness.
    The term lonely is very often equivocated. It is not uncommon to see all kinds of different people who suffer from a lack of proper interaction with others describe themselves as lonely. It is highly likely the case that NTs who have described themselves as lonely to you were using this word in a very different manner than Fs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  4. #74
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    By the way, one of the main reasons I joined this forum (after lurking) was due to BlueWing's incisive posts. I feel a burgeoning bromance building.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #75
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Sensation gives us accurate perceptions of the external world. This tends to be highly conducive to a very realistic view of the world.

    However, we should note that Sensation is a perceiving function. It does not give one a clear-cut perspective, it only provides impressions which need to be organized accordingly in order for a perspective to be concocted.

    Thinking on the other hand is a rational function. It is concerned with the basic logical analysis of the matter. Thus, if one wishes to understand things for what they are, quite obviously one needs to think about them very carefully, as the understanding does not occur on its own endeavor. In other words, most of us, especially dominant Sensing types( a claim I make in support of why Thinking is more conducive to a clear perspective), appears to know things by default.



    Let me know if I have misunderstood your question. You seem to be addressing my earlier claim that Thinking is what you need in order to know what you want, you suggest that Sensation is a more significant requirement. In this post I have endeavored to show that this is not so.
    Okay, reading this I understand and agree with your assertion that Extraverted Sensing would only provide the "material" of perception upon which Thinking or Feeling would act. I'm unclear how this would lead to "know[ing] things by default", however. From what I've seen, the ability to resist the urge to project and to process external information in an objective manner requires patience and mental discipline - the antithesis of "by default".

    I should add, at this point, that I believe the NF's unconscious tendency to interpose emotion- and value-based material between raw perception and personal experience is precisely what makes them such excellent poets, artists and musicians, and I don't entirely understand why many NFs on this board seem so prepared to deny or even denounce this personality strength.

  6. #76
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Okay, reading this I understand and agree with your assertion that Extraverted Sensing would only provide the "material" of perception upon which Thinking or Feeling would act. I'm unclear how this would lead to "know[ing] things by default", however. From what I've seen, the ability to resist the urge to project and to process external information in an objective manner requires patience and mental discipline - the antithesis of "by default".

    I should add, at this point, that I believe the NF's unconscious tendency to interpose emotion- and value-based material between raw perception and personal experience is precisely what makes them such excellent poets, artists and musicians, and I don't entirely understand why many NFs on this board seem so prepared to deny or even denounce this personality strength.
    I have maintained that noone knows things by default, especially not a dominant Sensing type. The Thinking type has a clear view of the world primarily because he has devoted much effort to understanding it.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #77
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluewing
    I have maintained that noone knows things by default, especially not a dominant Sensing type. The Thinking type has a clear view of the world primarily because he has devoted much effort to understanding it.
    Reading your earlier post once more, I see how you stressed this with the following comment:

    Thinking on the other hand is a rational function. It is concerned with the basic logical analysis of the matter. Thus, if one wishes to understand things for what they are, quite obviously one needs to think about them very carefully, as the understanding does not occur on its own endeavor.
    That being the case, I'm unclear what you mean by this:

    In other words, most of us, especially dominant Sensing types( a claim I make in support of why Thinking is more conducive to a clear perspective), appears to know things by default.
    Is this "us" in reference to Thinkers, or human beings in general?

    I'd like to stress that I ask of interest and that I'm not simply trying to be argumentative. (The main reason I stopped posting my type in my profile for a while was on account of this rather annoying assumption.)

  8. #78
    Member Oleander's Avatar
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    It helps not to be in English here. Feelers and Thinkers Know but in other languages there are two words for that: German Feelers Kennen and Thinkers Wissen while French Connaissent and Sachent. Maybe there is something similar in English Understand and Know.

  9. #79
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Reading your earlier post once more, I see how you stressed this with the following comment:



    That being the case, I'm unclear what you mean by this:



    Is this "us" in reference to Thinkers, or human beings in general?

    I'd like to stress that I ask of interest and that I'm not simply trying to be argumentative. (The main reason I stopped posting my type in my profile for a while was on account of this rather annoying assumption.)

    Apparently there is a logistical error in the post you have quoted.

    I meant to say noone, especially not the Sensing type can know things by default or without prior contemplation.

    This message, "In other words, most of us, especially dominant Sensing types( a claim I make in support of why Thinking is more conducive to a clear perspective), appears to know things by default. "



    This message was meant to be read as follows, In other words, most of us, especially dominant Sensing types( a claim I make in support of why Thinking is more conducive to a clear perspective), cannot to know things by default.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander View Post
    It helps not to be in English here. Feelers and Thinkers Know but in other languages there are two words for that: German Feelers Kennen and Thinkers Wissen while French Connaissent and Sachent. Maybe there is something similar in English Understand and Know.
    Any particular reason why you put the French ones in the third-person singular present subjunctive?
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