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  1. #31
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I don't know what you call it exactly, but every time I've been around a person who has super powers, I have ended up having those super powers myself. For a while. I need to be around the person again to recharge them.

  2. #32
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The OP doesn't understand Fi & probably thinks it's only about understanding how you feel & then judging things by your personal ideals according to what you need (which people reduce to "self-absorbed" or worse "selfishness").

    So let's get this out of the way first:
    Empathy - the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

    So empathy is not necessarily becoming personally affected with the same emotion the other person is feeling, but it can be an intellectual identification, or a deep understanding of what the emotion/feeling is & why it exists in that person.

    How does this work in a FiNe type (and probably similarly in a NeFi type)?

    As a Fi type, you yourself are an upclose case study of the inner nature of people. If you were to dissect a frog & study its insides, then you may have a general idea of what the insides of a frog look like, right? The Fi type does a thorough dissection of themselves - their feelings, their emotions, their needs, etc, and then goes deeper with it, past the surface implications, to identify the fundamental human need at core that goes beyond their own personal preferences. In this way, they understand how people work & can identify why they are responding a certain way emotionally.

    When it comes to empathy, it's a matter of "I know what it is to feel pain, so I can recognize pain in others & know that it is bad". I can tell you that I have spent a lot of time exploring emotions & feelings in the manner of "if this happened, how would I feel?" and also via art, music, literature, etc. This gives me a lot of hypothesis to work from, where my experience may be limited. I have a sort of prototype of human feeling built up in my head.

    So the Fi+Ne type in particular does not have to personally experience something to understand how it can affect someone, nor do they themselves have to have the same response (because knowing that people are affected very differently is an edge Fi has over Fe, which tends to see feelings as objective & almost inevitably shared; this awareness may come from seeing the huge difference in yourself from others at a young age). I think @Seymour once described this process as "simulating someone else in your head", by grasping their essence as a person & considering how you would feel if you were them in their situation, NOT if you were you in their situation. Is Ne involved in this? Most likely, because it involves taking on different external perspectives to understand a relationship (in this case, the relationship between a person's feelings/emotions & whatever affected them) & grasping the "big picture" of a person so as to imagine yourself as them very vividly. You are extrapolating foreign feelings from known feelings & known information. "Extrapolating" is a key word for me in this process; I think it really hits on the manner in which a Fi+Ne type empathizes. I personally see xxFPs as MUCH better at understanding foreign feelings than xxFJs, who seem more focused on what is a "normal" response, based on their observations & other external criteria. If someone is sad, they seem able to empathize with the emotion because the recognize & feel their sadness, but they may not always see why someone feels that way, not if they don't see the emotion as being the normal response. This is because emotions signal value, and a value that is not externally sourced is not necessarily valid to the Fe type.

    The xxFP may be less prone to being emotionally affected themselves when they empathize though (but sometimes we can be, if it really hits on an ideal, whether meeting it or violating it). I agree with @Elfboy that it feels like you're making sense of something, which seems weird to people who see emotions as not having any sort of structure (to a Fi type, they do). I admit I sometimes think of these instances as solving "emotional puzzles", which sounds detached, but I have a strong moral pull to do so, which is not detached at all.

    I'm making it sound really technical just to explain it clearly, but it's not really experienced that way. There's a lot of sudden realizations & connections & grasping of intangible essences (very Ne) & then making sense of it based on that Fi insight into people.
    Good explanation

    Oh yeah, I have to echo that I tend to empathize with fictional characters easily & can be deeply disturbed by violence in movies too. My ESFP sister doesn't get this either...because it's "not real". I think it's an NF thing, where you focus on an idea & glean meaning from it, and that often means an emotional response.
    I also empathise easily with characters (even really negative ones, if they're portrayed well) but violence in film doesn't bother me, unless it's overly heightened like in "torture porn" as @Marmie Dearest mentioned. I think tension affects me more than anything. I can be terrible in highly suspenseful horror films, even though I'm not a scaredy cat - I just find the tension so agonising. Perhaps you could say I respond more to tone and atmosphere than content.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #33
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    its not about Fe, its about mirroring others. ENFPs have highest activity of all types in the brain areas responsible for that
    Link to study please. Also mirroring and empathy arent exactly the same things and while there is a degree of overlapping (then again there is overlapping for pretty much all brain activities) dont involve the same parts of the brain.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  4. #34
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Link to study please. Also mirroring and empathy arent exactly the same things and while there is a degree of overlapping (then again there is overlapping for pretty much all brain activities) dont involve the same parts of the brain.
    couldnt find it from internets, but i took a screen shot from the pdf


    its some study of dario nardis

    mirroring others emotional states = empathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.psych.60.110707.163604?journalCode=psych
    There is a convergence between cognitive models of imitation, constructs derived from social psychology studies on mimicry and empathy, and recent empirical findings from the neurosciences. The ideomotor framework of human actions assumes a common representational format for action and perception that facilitates imitation. Furthermore, the associative sequence learning model of imitation proposes that experience-based Hebbian learning forms links between sensory processing of the actions of others and motor plans. Social psychology studies have demonstrated that imitation and mimicry are pervasive, automatic, and facilitate empathy. Neuroscience investigations have demonstrated physiological mechanisms of mirroring at single-cell and neural-system levels that support the cognitive and social psychology constructs. Why were these neural mechanisms selected, and what is their adaptive advantage? Neural mirroring solves the “problem of other minds” (how we can access and understand the minds of others) and makes intersubjectivity possible, thus facilitating social behavior.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #35
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    couldnt find it from internets, but i took a screen shot from the pdf


    its some study of dario nardis

    mirroring others emotional states = empathy.
    thanks for the link. However it doesn't give any information on the methodology, used units, experimental procedure, sample etc. That makes that information interesting surely (as in inspire interest) but not truly useful or reliable as such.

    Well you re playing with words now. Mirroring isnt NOT empathy, and mirroring isnt equal mirroring others emotional states.

    Social psychology studies have demonstrated that imitation and mimicry are pervasive, automatic, and facilitate empathy.
    facilitate isn't equal to. There is a pattern of confusion between the tag you want things to have and what the actual data says in your posts. Be more careful please.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    thanks for the link. However it doesn't give any information on the methodology, used units, experimental procedure, sample etc. That makes that information interesting surely (as in inspire interest) but not truly useful or reliable as such.

    Well you re playing with words now. Mirroring isnt NOT empathy, and mirroring isnt equal mirroring others emotional states.


    facilitate isn't equal to. There is a pattern of confusion between the tag you want things to have and what the actual data says in your posts. Be more careful please.
    google empathy mirror neurons, i dont care to explain everything
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #37
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    that's interesting. i'll have to look into this mirroring thing more too.

    is that also why we seem to take on the energy level of the room?

    but yeah i don't think i'm a total empath or anything...i can stand face to face with someone crying...and think whatever they're crying about is stupid....so it's certainly not all the time...and it doesn't seem to matter how close we are...it has to do with understanding the feeling...or maybe...like oa said..even the violation of a very strong feeling.

    i don't know if it means i'm weak minded...or that my emotions are just too strong but i don't think a feeling is a choice. i can't fake it either way...even if i care about you and want to empathize.

    i do think that fi is more about...so...this is how you feel...
    and fe is more like...we feel this way about it..

    but maybe that's inaccurate...tiltyred??

    and being aware that it's a movie and not really happening doesn't stop it from affecting me....probably because...it is real...out there in the world it exists and it happens. i'm not affected by unrealistic stuff in the same way but can be...because i can go there and think what if this happened!!??
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #38
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    google empathy mirror neurons, i dont care to explain everything
    As usual. You miss the point of formal logic. : /
    emotions are internalized states. You cant ''mirror an emotion'' directly. Meaning that the mirroring system is related to but not equal to empathy.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #39
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well what Lady X is talking about is Fi, because it's completely imaginary - those people are acting, they aren't really suffering, you're putting yourself in their place with your own Fi, and feeling it as if it were happening to you. That's Fi. That's how Fi works. You feel bad for people who are suffering because somehow you are inclined to internalize what other people are experiencing and "feel it."
    Interesting... I do also have that kind of "What if that was me?" reaction whenever horror movies are involved, as well as the instinctive response to scary stuff. That's a big part of why I dislike watching horror films - it kind of feels real, in a way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I can understand crying over a really sad movie, but it's really in your best interest to analyze this and intellectualize what you're seeing, and accept that you're choosing to do it to yourself.

    You can choose, for example, to lose yourself in a novel, or read critically. If you feel yourself becoming that upset, you need to be in the state of mind where you would "read critically" ...except you're watching a film. I wouldn't say this would "ruin your experience" of the film, either, since you're clearly not enjoying yourself.
    Yeah, detachment towards fiction is something I need to work on, as a college student - not necessarily because I have such strong feelings, but because it makes me a bit uncomfortable to analyze someone else's work like that...

    However, I'm glad I can do it with novels and films. I have a friend who says she doesn't even want to read Wuthering Heights because the relationship between Cathy and Heathcliff is so "unhealthy." I'm just like really? REALLY?
    Maybe it was a trigger? Reminded her of past unhealthy relationships, brought up bad memories?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah. I can't watch reality TV shows where they're all fighting, drama and whatnot. It feels like loud, horrible noise filling up my head, making me impatient and frustrated and angry and sad all at once.
    Ugh, me too. Not to mention all the humiliation going on.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    As usual. You miss the point of formal logic. : /
    emotions are internalized states. You cant ''mirror an emotion'' directly. Meaning that the mirroring system is related to but not equal to empathy.
    emotions are not internalized states, they are internal states. mirror neurons take whats happening outside and inserting that thing in your head, and making other neurons react to it as if it were happening inside your head, not with someone else. this is exactly what empathy is about.

    if someone smiles and your mirror neurons respond to that, you smile, and because you smile, you feel happy. if someone is anxious and your mirror neurons respond to that, your body will start to act as if you were anxious, and because your get an anxious response, you feel anxious. etc etc and this doesent happen only with simplistic things like those examples, especially with people who have high functioning mirror neuron system, those people are able to mimic more complex things, resulting in more accurate mimicing, resulting in more accurate and more "intruding" feelings of mimicry and thus creating more accurate and intruding feelings of empathy

    learn the basics and then talk(like i said, use google or go read a book), this is just waste of my time
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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