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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    In my makeup, it's involuntary.
    I have visceral responses to physical things, but I really am not sure why anyone would continue to do that to themselves when they were old enough to realize it wasn't real.

    Of course, maybe this means you're N dominant (you are, you're INFJ) and you can't stop your mind from imagining you're there or something. To me that seems like a hellish curse, to react that strongly to things that you intellectually know aren't real. I already have enough going on IRL to feel bad about.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I just don't subject myself to fictive unpleasantness. Not sure I appreciate the suggestion that I'm weak minded or masochistic. It's just how I'm wired.

    Re-reading your response -- that's right, I can't stop my mind from imagining I'm there. More like can't stop my nervous system from inhabiting what I'm being shown.

  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well, I, on the other hand, grew out of it. I started seeing it as silly and pointless, because movies aren't real. It's like a form of masochism to do that over something that isn't really happening.

    And I only do it with things that seem real or remind me of the real world. I've always been able to watch horror movies - in fact I LOVE horror movies (with the exception of "torture porn") because it's bullshit, it's not going to really happen.

    I enjoy movies a lot more now that I can remain detached from them. Having a Thinking function rocks.
    personally, my empathy is more logical. empathy for me is similar to observing a debate. I can easily track with the trains of thought of everyone involved and speak up for that person in the event of a miscommunication "no, he was referring to A, because he thought you meant B which led him to believe that you wanted C which he staunchly opposed earlier" . for me, it has more to do with Ne and Te than it does Fi. emotionally speaking, the feelings of others don't effect me at all
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I just don't subject myself to fictive unpleasantness. Not sure I appreciate the suggestion that I'm weak minded or masochistic. It's just how I'm wired.
    Well scratching at people and stuff does seem a bit excessive.

    I can understand crying over a really sad movie, but it's really in your best interest to analyze this and intellectualize what you're seeing, and accept that you're choosing to do it to yourself.

    You can choose, for example, to lose yourself in a novel, or read critically. If you feel yourself becoming that upset, you need to be in the state of mind where you would "read critically" ...except you're watching a film. I wouldn't say this would "ruin your experience" of the film, either, since you're clearly not enjoying yourself.

    I have a harder time doing this in arguments with other people, with detaching. When I am in the middle of a conflict I feel strongly about, I have trouble intellectually detaching like some people can.

    However, I'm glad I can do it with novels and films. I have a friend who says she doesn't even want to read Wuthering Heights because the relationship between Cathy and Heathcliff is so "unhealthy." I'm just like really? REALLY?

  5. #25
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I think it has to do with N scanning plus F emotional cuing. We take in big-picture impressions of people's emotional states, and then anticipate (FJ) or mirror (FP) accordingly. Fe empathy will focus on interpersonal relations, assessing how certain emotions will affect relationships and interpersonal harmony, and how others will behave, and Fe users therefore can get a good read on how others feel. Fi empathy will focus more on intrapersonal emotional state, assessing how certain emotions will affect individuals and their thoughts, motivations, etc, and Fi users therefore can get a good read on how others feel. Our respective N functions then allow NFJs to make good guesses at how others will behave based on those feelings and NFPs to make good guesses at how to get on the same emotional "level" as others.

    I don't think we're any more "empathetic" than NFJs or any other Fs, though. I think NFs tend to project and assume more due to iNtuition than SFs, which would make an NF more likely to claim "empath" status, but aside from that, I think all Feelers share those qualities. And really all humans are empathetic to a certain degree - Feelers just choose to use that empathy to make personal decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    I actually just can't watch that shit because it effects me too much. I also can't deal with intense drug movies where they're all strung out...I feel that too. It's horrible.
    Yeah. I can't watch reality TV shows where they're all fighting, drama and whatnot. It feels like loud, horrible noise filling up my head, making me impatient and frustrated and angry and sad all at once.

  6. #26
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I have visceral responses to physical things, but I really am not sure why anyone would continue to do that to themselves when they were old enough to realize it wasn't real.

    Of course, maybe this means you're N dominant (you are, you're INFJ) and you can't stop your mind from imagining you're there or something. To me that seems like a hellish curse, to react that strongly to things that you intellectually know aren't real. I already have enough going on IRL to feel bad about.
    being an N dom is hard sometimes. the natural present mindedness of SPs is something I'm becoming increasingly envious of
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well scratching at people and stuff does seem a bit excessive.

    I can understand crying over a really sad movie, but it's really in your best interest to analyze this and intellectualize what you're seeing, and accept that you're choosing to do it to yourself.

    You can choose, for example, to lose yourself in a novel, or read critically. If you feel yourself becoming that upset, you need to be in the state of mind where you would "read critically" ...except you're watching a film. I wouldn't say this would "ruin your experience" of the film, either, since you're clearly not enjoying yourself.

    I have a harder time doing this in arguments with other people, with detaching. When I am in the middle of a conflict I feel strongly about, I have trouble intellectually detaching like some people can.

    However, I'm glad I can do it with novels and films. I have a friend who says she doesn't even want to read Wuthering Heights because the relationship between Cathy and Heathcliff is so "unhealthy." I'm just like really? REALLY?
    Scratching at people?? Where'd you read that?

    Srsly, not doing it to myself, that's just what my body does. For that reason, I have never been able to watch a horror movie. Horror movies I was exposed to when I was very young still give me nightmares. I don't watch that shit. For me, that's, like, soul pollution.

    I haz red minny buks, tho, Miss Marmie -- remember I was certified to teach high school Engrish, got a BS from a collidge an' all. And Dover Beach still makes me cry.

    I think of movies and books as things to enjoy and that I do for recreation. I don't enjoy detaching; I enjoy merging. So I pick things I can joyfully merge with. I suppose I could put myself through an exercise of detaching from a horror movie but I would prefer not to. You would have to pay me. It would be a lot of money.

    With arguments, for me, the trick is knowing when to stop. If I can stop and get time to breathe, and pick it up later after I've had time to ruminate over everything that was said, it's much better. If I get pushed to continue when my adrenaline is up, well ... all bets are off.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    I believe INTP already gave you the best connection to this. ENFP's have the highest neural mirror activity of all the types. I'd imagine it correlates to NeFi.

    Ne merges with its object. The (sometimes) limitless perceptions then get filtered around with aux Fi, which has a powerful capacity to detect sincerity.

    But I don't necessarily believe that ENFP's are the most empathic, it's always possible you noted a few of them mentioning it and started picking it out more, or that ENFP's are more vocal about it or that you have a small sample rate =) I think a good case could be made for Fe's too.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Scratching at people?? Where'd you read that?
    Sorry you said screaming and flinching. To a speed reader I guess it looked like "scra-ching." My bad.

    Srsly, not doing it to myself, that's just what my body does. For that reason, I have never been able to watch a horror movie. Horror movies I was exposed to when I was very young still give me nightmares. I don't watch that shit. For me, that's, like, soul pollution.
    For me it's actually forming a deeper empathy and knowledge of ALL of humanity, not just the good parts. I've always been very adamant about this. I'm much too curious, and want to experience too many things to only preoccupy myself with what is pleasant about human nature. I've always been fascinated by the dark side of life, though of course, I won't sit there and watch nothing but complete violence and negativity for days or weeks on end, because that's very much over-doing it, for anyone.

    But because of my ability to detach, I'm able to watch so many more movies, to learn so many more things about people and the world. That is my opinion.

    I haz red minny buks, tho, Miss Marmie -- remember I was certified to teach high school Engrish, got a BS from a collidge an' all. And Dover Beach still makes me cry.
    There are books and movies that make me cry. But I can choose to detach.

    I think of movies and books as things to enjoy and that I do for recreation. I don't enjoy detaching; I enjoy merging. So I pick things I can joyfully merge with. I suppose I could put myself through an exercise of detaching from a horror movie but I would prefer not to. You would have to pay me. It would be a lot of money.
    I enjoy both FEELING and DETACHING so I can understand. In fact, I've been thinking that I "feel" in the moment very intensely with Fi/Se, and then detach with Ni and see from other perspectives, and analyze and categorize with Te. This is what I think.

    It also has started to help with my own life as I've grown older, this ability to detach and analyze my own feelings, and see things from a different angle...but with my personal experiences, it's "after the fact." I get very caught up in my personal dramas, including arguments.

    With arguments, for me, the trick is knowing when to stop. If I can stop and get time to breathe, and pick it up later after I've had time to ruminate over everything that was said, it's much better. If I get pushed to continue when my adrenaline is up, well ... all bets are off.
    I've noticed INFJs are good at this. 9s I think are good sometimes, too, with knowing when to NOT engage.

  10. #30
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The OP doesn't understand Fi & probably thinks it's only about understanding how you feel & then judging things by your personal ideals according to what you need (which people reduce to "self-absorbed" or worse "selfishness").

    So let's get this out of the way first:
    Empathy - the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

    So empathy is not necessarily becoming personally affected with the same emotion the other person is feeling, but it can be an intellectual identification, or a deep understanding of what the emotion/feeling is & why it exists in that person.

    How does this work in a FiNe type (and probably similarly in a NeFi type)?

    As a Fi type, you yourself are an upclose case study of the inner nature of people. If you were to dissect a frog & study its insides, then you may have a general idea of what the insides of a frog look like, right? The Fi type does a thorough dissection of themselves - their feelings, their emotions, their needs, etc, and then goes deeper with it, past the surface implications, to identify the fundamental human need at core that goes beyond their own personal preferences. In this way, they understand how people work & can identify why they are responding a certain way emotionally.

    When it comes to empathy, it's a matter of "I know what it is to feel pain, so I can recognize pain in others & know that it is bad". I can tell you that I have spent a lot of time exploring emotions & feelings in the manner of "if this happened, how would I feel?" and also via art, music, literature, etc. This gives me a lot of hypothesis to work from, where my experience may be limited. I have a sort of prototype of human feeling built up in my head.

    So the Fi+Ne type in particular does not have to personally experience something to understand how it can affect someone, nor do they themselves have to have the same response (because knowing that people are affected very differently is an edge Fi has over Fe, which tends to see feelings as objective & almost inevitably shared; this awareness may come from seeing the huge difference in yourself from others at a young age). I think @Seymour once described this process as "simulating someone else in your head", by grasping their essence as a person & considering how you would feel if you were them in their situation, NOT if you were you in their situation. Is Ne involved in this? Most likely, because it involves taking on different external perspectives to understand a relationship (in this case, the relationship between a person's feelings/emotions & whatever affected them) & grasping the "big picture" of a person so as to imagine yourself as them very vividly. You are extrapolating foreign feelings from known feelings & known information. "Extrapolating" is a key word for me in this process; I think it really hits on the manner in which a Fi+Ne type empathizes. I personally see xxFPs as MUCH better at understanding foreign feelings than xxFJs, who seem more focused on what is a "normal" response, based on their observations & other external criteria. If someone is sad, they seem able to empathize with the emotion because the recognize & feel their sadness, but they may not always see why someone feels that way, not if they don't see the emotion as being the normal response. This is because emotions signal value, and a value that is not externally sourced is not necessarily valid to the Fe type.

    The xxFP may be less prone to being emotionally affected themselves when they empathize though (but sometimes we can be, if it really hits on an ideal, whether meeting it or violating it). I agree with @Elfboy that it feels like you're making sense of something, which seems weird to people who see emotions as not having any sort of structure (to a Fi type, they do). I admit I sometimes think of these instances as solving "emotional puzzles", which sounds detached, but I have a strong moral pull to do so, which is not detached at all.

    I'm making it sound really technical just to explain it clearly, but it's not really experienced that way. There's a lot of sudden realizations & connections & grasping of intangible essences (very Ne) & then making sense of it based on that Fi insight into people.

    ------

    Oh yeah, I have to echo that I tend to empathize with fictional characters easily & can be deeply disturbed by violence in movies too. My ESFP sister doesn't get this either...because it's "not real". I think it's an NF thing, where you focus on an idea & glean meaning from it, and that often means an emotional response.
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