[NF] "Sorry." "It's not your fault!"

[sculpting]

I don't think they plan it any more than I plan to say "I'm sorry" in response to someone's grief. It's an emotional response that happens to get verbalized in a certain way. You can tell from someone's tone what that response is. The words themselves don't carry that weight. For example, someone who said "It's not your fault" because they thought I was saying sorry because I was to blame would sound very different and I wouldn't be put out by that.

Oh, I gotcha, that makes total sense now. I can totally see what that would sound like, now that you mention it.

 

[EJCC]

With respect to the quote and Fi, , I think you have a beautiful sense of values -I suspect my Fi version is just enfp flavored and even likely a sub-type of enfp at that, so I tend to let too much of the world into my space and be too idealistic all at once, which makes me way too sensitive at times.

Thank you Orobas! And you're probably right; Fi just operates differently as an inferior function.

"I'm sorry for your loss" feels more contained and almost formulaic, thus I would respond with a more formulaic response in turn, (enfp chameleon effect) so it is much easier not to default to the knee jerk "It's not your fault". I think part of the cause for the knee jerk incorrect response is that I tend be very authentic and literal in my communication with others, as well as I dont think before I open my mouth, thus do blurt things out at times-whatever is on the top of my head and fits the flow of the conversation the best.

Okay, that makes sense. I have a question regarding this, and I'm asking you because I'm presuming that you would respond in this hypothetical situation in a way that would work if you were talking to yourself -- if that makes sense.

If you were talking to someone you knew a little bit -- possibly a friend, but not a close friend, and someone who has never opened up to you (nor have you opened up to them) -- and the person told you that a relative had died, how would you respond? Some of the Fe responses (e.g. "Is there anything I can do to help?") are ways that I would respond with a close friend -- but I'm not sure how you would respond to someone you don't know well. Maybe it's because I'm a Thinker, but in those situations, I have a hard time giving an appropriate response besides a formulaic one (e.g. "I'm sorry for your loss"), because I can't really feel very much for them except for "Wow, that must suck for you!" So, surprised in a negative way, more than empathetic.

To the INFJs-are you offended when you hear the response "It's not your fault"? Or is it just a weird social bump that leaves you off kilter? Or does it feel like your kind gesture was rejected?

I'm not an INFJ, but I would answer with the part that I bolded.

 

[Coriolis]

Do people really do that? Like plan things out that way? (sorry, ditzy enfp at the wheel I plan logistics around timelines and delieverables, but blurt out random nonsense half the time I open my mouth )

Yes, much of what I say in social situations is highly premeditated. The better I know someone, the more willing I am to "freelance".

I'm not sure how you would respond to someone you don't know well. Maybe it's because I'm a Thinker, but in those situations, I have a hard time giving an appropriate response besides a formulaic one (e.g. "I'm sorry for your loss"), because I can't really feel very much for them except for "Wow, that must suck for you!" .

Same here. It isn't really an emotional response for me, unless I know and care about the affected person. It's more an attempt to show common courtesy and acceptable social behavior. Cross this intention with what is almost an inability to say something I don't mean, and you can see where premeditation comes in handy.

 

[Santosha]

Thoughts?

This stuff almost always trips me up, both ways. I personally have a very difficult time talking to people about anything really tragic going on in my life. I can do this with family and close friends and my partner, but I feel this sometimes sickening pressure to stay happy, positive and fun around people I'm not really close to, even if I am falling apart inside. What is worse, is that I contemplate how fake I am really being in this and what it must mean for me to struggle so much in openly revealing vulnerabilities.

By the same token, I am sometimes irritated by random people that tell me of such tragedies. Ofcourse there are times when, say you bump into someone you haven't seen in a while and you or they kinda have to mention that there was a divorce or a death or major illness, etc. My ESFJ friend is SOOO talented at always knowing the exactly perfect thing to say and do, and even if the receiver is very different they still always seem to be warmed by her intent. I hear her say "I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do to help?" When I do it, I feels forced and inauthentic - even if it is not. She (esfj) is also fantastic at letting people cry, just sitting with them and being there. I really admire her for these qualities.

My brothers girlfriend and I do not slide very well on this exact topic. She has been through some terrible things, including horrid sexual abuse by her step father and the bearing of a child in it. Her brother also killed himself. The whole ordeal is almost too much to bare. I really, genuinely feel for this girl, but she wears these tragedies in a way that I can not comprehend, she wallows in it, allows it to become her.. and I know I don't have any place to tell her how to feel or be, but she seems to enjoy dumping these things about herself to anyone and everyone when first meeting them! She has done this to me a few times, and I just don't know how the fuck to respond. "I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do for you?" can only be said so many times before it's like "what do you expect me to say?" and I really wish I could ask her that, though I could never allow myself to be so crude.. I really wish I could say "When you tell people you just met about these things that have happened.. what exactly are you hoping for? Are you looking for sympathy? Are you just putting it out there?"

Maybe it is an fi thing? The things that really pain me are not things I can air lightly. Words fail to convey my emotion, cheapening the experience. I also really hate putting something so heavy on people I don't know well. I don't like it done to me so I don't do it to others.

Can anyone explain to me why someone would do this? What they are looking for? I was going to post a thread on this but couldn't articulate it appropriately.

 

[sculpting]

Thank you Orobas! And you're probably right; Fi just operates differently as an inferior function.

Okay, that makes sense. I have a question regarding this, and I'm asking you because I'm presuming that you would respond in this hypothetical situation in a way that would work if you were talking to yourself -- if that makes sense.

If you were talking to someone you knew a little bit -- possibly a friend, but not a close friend, and someone who has never opened up to you (nor have you opened up to them) -- and the person told you that a relative had died, how would you respond? Some of the Fe responses (e.g. "Is there anything I can do to help?") are ways that I would respond with a close friend -- but I'm not sure how you would respond to someone you don't know well. Maybe it's because I'm a Thinker, but in those situations, I have a hard time giving an appropriate response besides a formulaic one (e.g. "I'm sorry for your loss"), because I can't really feel very much for them except for "Wow, that must suck for you!" So, surprised in a negative way, more than empathetic.

hmm, if I heard this, even if I didnt know them well, I would feel a strong empathic reposne of angstful hurt-sadness-yearning-loss internally myself within seconds. Then, given the emotional perterbation, I am thrown off gaurd and I sort of freeze and just mutter something stupid like "that is very sad. "

Recently another enfp I work with lost his grandfather. I said "wow, you have had a very rough week-let me know if I can help in anyway" but then we just shared a glance of understanding and he nodded. Words are difficult to capture the emotional reponse and he didnt want to talk about the emotions. The actual words said were irrelevant-the topic was effectively emotionally off limts-a subtle withdraw indicated that.

oddly, what I would like to say...but note it really IS an apology...

"I am so sorry that you are feeling such pain and hurt. I am so sorry that the world is a painful place and I wish I could bear some of this pain for you. I wish in someway that I could undo the loss you have sufferred, the hurt that you feel and take away your pain and your sufferring, make that it never happened. I would gladly carry some of your hurt if I could do so or I would change the past if I thought it would make a difference. Everyday I wish I had the capability to prevent loss and sadness and remove the heartlessness and the sources of sufferring in the world. If it was within my power I would do everything I could to remove the sources of pain in the world and make sure others dont feel what you have felt. I wish nothing more than to hold you and comfort you, and take away the pains the world has inflicted upon you and give you time to heal. I realize that is impossible, but I just want you to know that I am here for you, whenever you need me and you will never be alone. You are loved and valued and did not deserve this to happen to you."

However, the lesson enfps learn very early...I think we have a fairly unique worldview that compels us to open ourselves to the world and offer up our own souls in an extremely authentic way...but mostly people dont want this at all, not out of meanness, although it feels that way, but just because it isnt thier natural mode of communication. So it only takes a few years before we stop sharing and even stop speaking abut this stuff.

 

[Tiltyred]

This is a break-down of etiquette. Like when people don't understand that the response to "How do you do?" is "How do you do?" Or people who think "How are you today?" means they really want to hear about your aching bunion.

If I say, in response to sad news, "I'm sorry," and the other person says "Why? It's not your fault," I just smile and move it right along.

You could try "Oh, what a shame," or "I'm sorry to hear it" if you're not in a context where "That sux" is appropriate. But in any case, it's not you.

 

[SilkRoad]

Hey kids, thank you very much for all the interesting responses...and believe me, they have been interesting. There is stuff here that would never have occurred to me on my own.

I've been away so have just barely caught up with this, but thanks, really!

 

[Coriolis]

This is a break-down of etiquette. Like when people don't understand that the response to "How do you do?" is "How do you do?" Or people who think "How are you today?" means they really want to hear about your aching bunion.

But following these scripts often feels so fake and pointless, while innocuously departing from them can be so satisfying.

oddly, what I would like to say...but note it really IS an apology...

"I am so sorry that you are feeling such pain and hurt. I am so sorry that the world is a painful place and I wish I could bear some of this pain for you. <etc.>

However, the lesson enfps learn very early...I think we have a fairly unique worldview that compels us to open ourselves to the world and offer up our own souls in an extremely authentic way...but mostly people dont want this at all, not out of meanness, although it feels that way, but just because it isnt thier natural mode of communication. So it only takes a few years before we stop sharing and even stop speaking abut this stuff.

Interesting perspective. When someone other than a close friend tells me something like this, I usually think:

"Why are you telling me this? There is nothing I can do to change or improve anything, and if there were, you probably would not me to do it, and would not appreciate or act upon my suggestions. I will therefore continue to focus my energies on those situations I actually can affect. I am sorry you are undergoing this difficulty, but it has nothing to do with me."

Of course, what I actually say is something like "that sounds like a difficult situation", or "it is unfortunate you have to go through this; let me know if I can help". People probably want a genuine INTJ response even less than they want your ENFP one.

 

[prplchknz]

I'm gonna start replying to "it's not your fault" with "I know"

 

[Tiltyred]

But following these scripts often feels so fake and pointless, while innocuously departing from them can be so satisfying.

It is pointless as far as exchange of information, but it's not fake -- it serves its purpose. It's not meant to be a genuine conversation. Just as "I'm sorry" is not an apology. It's a thing you say when someone else tells about their misfortune.

 

[Coriolis]

It is pointless as far as exchange of information, but it's not fake -- it serves its purpose. It's not meant to be a genuine conversation. Just as "I'm sorry" is not an apology. It's a thing you say when someone else tells about their misfortune.

It is fake because I don't feel it and I don't mean it. I therefore do my best to avoid saying it, and to find something else to say that I really do mean and will also be considered socially acceptable.

 

[Tiltyred]

*SIGH*
Raised by wolves...

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think this has been mentioned.... But it's a pet peeve of mine when people say "It's not your fault" in response to "I'm sorry". They clearly don't understand what "sorry" even means. People think "I'm sorry" means "I apologize", but it does not. It can be an apology, but it does not literally mean you apologize. Obviously, "sorry" is related to "sorrow", so "I'm sorry" really means "I feel sorrow" or "grief" or "sadness". So when something bad happens to someone (ie. they lose a loved one), and you say "I'm sorry", then you're just saying, "I feel sad for your loss". You are offering sympathy, not an apology. "I'm sorry" is perfectly appropriate & those who think it's always an apology or a taking of blame don't have a good grasp of English .

The fact that it's sort of a stock phrase to lean on doesn't bug me.... I thought these phrases were "invented" precisely because these moments can be awkward & people don't know what to say, but they DO want to express genuine sympathy. Just because it's not an original phrase or some profound offering doesn't make the motive fake.

 

[sculpting]

It is pointless as far as exchange of information, but it's not fake -- it serves its purpose. It's not meant to be a genuine conversation. Just as "I'm sorry" is not an apology. It's a thing you say when someone else tells about their misfortune.

This. is. so. weird. (not you Tildy, you are very funny! ) rather the notion of saying things that are not meant to be a genuine convo. why are my lips moving if it isnt meant to convey content...very strange notion.

(As an aside I routinely blow the "how are you doing" question as well) *shakes head at self* It is a combo of a too open mouth combined with an innate knee jerk drive to authenticity in interaction I think.

In midstream I need to figure out a suitable lie to address the social question, then simultaneously reason why it is okay to lie to the other person, because they really want me to, then actually tell the lie. It is a lot of work for a quick social interaction.

It is fake because I don't feel it and I don't mean it. I therefore do my best to avoid saying it, and to find something else to say that I really do mean and will also be considered socially acceptable.

I think necromancy could provide a reasonable solution to the problem...think about it-you could actually DO something about the issue and I wouldnt have to feel apologetic over their loss any more....it could be the PERFECT solution.

Bob: My just passed away last week...
Me: Have you considered raising her from the dead? I have a couple of good spells....

(zombies are only scary if they aren't family)

 

[Coriolis]

(As an aside I routinely blow the "how are you doing" question as well) *shakes head at self* It is a combo of a too open mouth combined with an innate knee jerk drive to authenticity in interaction I think.

In midstream I need to figure out a suitable lie to address the social question, then simultaneously reason why it is okay to lie to the other person, because they really want me to, then actually tell the lie. It is a lot of work for a quick social interaction.

What about a too closed mouth combined with that drive to authenticity? At least that makes it easier to avoid lying. I have seen enough of these situations, though, to have developed my own stock answers to many of them. My typical answer to "how are you doing", for instance, is simply "busy". "No/not really" works for surprisingly many pointless, insipid questions.

I think necromancy could provide a reasonable solution to the problem...think about it-you could actually DO something about the issue and I wouldnt have to feel apologetic over their loss any more....it could be the PERFECT solution.

Oooohh - an excuse to learn a new skill, and help others in the process.

 

[sculpting]

What about a too closed mouth combined with that drive to authenticity? At least that makes it easier to avoid lying. I have seen enough of these situations, though, to have developed my own stock answers to many of them. My typical answer to "how are you doing", for instance, is simply "busy". "No/not really" works for surprisingly many pointless, insipid questions.]

I abosluetely agree wrt INTJ authenticity and closed mouthness. I have seen a ton of INTJs over at INTJf and often they feel the same Fi pull to be authentic of just say nothing.

[
Oooohh - an excuse to learn a new skill, and help others in the process.

Exactly!! See this is why INTJs and ENFPs can work well together! (To possibly bring about the zombie apocolypse...it's like combining Pandora with Thor's hammer-hmmm, I wonder if this will work *giggles*)

 

[Viridian]

What would be the honest thing to say, then, when you're not devastated but understand that the other person is and want to be courteous even though you don't know him/her very well?

 

[Coriolis]

What would be the honest thing to say, then, when you're not devastated but understand that the other person is and want to be courteous even though you don't know him/her very well?

I assume you are referring to death situations. For someone I don't know well, I usually say something like "that's too bad", or "that sounds like a difficult situation" if they have shared enough details to support this conclusion.

 

[Viridian]

I assume you are referring to death situations. For someone I don't know well, I usually say something like "that's too bad", or "that sounds like a difficult situation" if they have shared enough details to support this conclusion.

Fair enough. Thanks!

 

[mrcockburn]

I just say "oh wow" or "yikes".

...yeah, I think I need Fe lessons.