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  1. #31
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    I feel torn because I do want to help you guys, but this is something that I’ll need to spend more time thinking about because even though I have tons of thoughts floating around in my head about this, most of it isn’t in a coherent form yet. And I wish I had more time right now to do that (the end of the semester is upon me and is hijacking my time and energy). The other posts I made in this thread were things I had already given a lot of thought to, so I was able to do that. Augh. But here’s what I got at the moment:

    These codes are in a lot of ways dependent on circumstances, so it’s hard to talk about them in ways that will apply to every or most circumstances. But some general things are that it depends on are how close you are to the other person and what kind of information is being talked about in the Te-message. For instance, if the Te message is about things that are impersonal (such as a discussion on whether the current version of American English or the current version of British English is closer to the way British English was back in the 1700s), then you’re talking to the INFJ’s NiTi instead of Fe. (I feel like the rules/codes and how this all works will be a bit different for non-INFJ Fe-users, but I’ll speak from this perspective because that’s the one that I have the most knowledge about—hopefully most of what I’m saying will have some value in regards to other Fe-users as well.) This is I think where what Z Buck McFate was saying comes into play the most, in that it can feel like the Te message is demanding that we think a certain way when it speaks in definitive terms. If you want to soften that, try using terms like “I think,” “I believe,” “In my opinion,” “It seems like.” I understand that most of the time, the person using Te is expecting that if the other person disagrees that they will just say so, but I second the stadium blowhorn analogy in that it’s hard to have a discussion with a message that feels like that.

    However, if the Te message is not impersonal, but it’s talking about something that a person could improve on or a relationship could improve on, then it sometimes feels like a personal attack. In some way, let the person know at the beginning of the conversation that this is not meant personally and that you care about them as a person and just want to discuss these things. I mentioned before doing something like stating something that you agree with the person about first and then stating what your disagreement is second. Saying something you agree with them first is a signal that says that it’s not meant as an attack. (For an example, I used this at the beginning of my previous post—after the grumbling about timing out.) But this is normally something that’s used in the middle of a conversation, not at the beginning. If you’re the end introducing the subject, again, it would be helpful to let them know at the very start before you say anything else that it’s not meant personally and that you still care about them. Even as I’m typing this, it seems kind of a weird thing to say because if you’re close to someone, it may feel like ‘of course I care about you, why would I have a close relationship with you in the first place if I didn’t’, but I’m just saying this because of the nature of how Te message can appear sometimes to Fe users as attacks.

    There have been a few times when an ENFP has flat out said things like this to me directly before launching into a Te analysis of our friendship or something that I could improve on. There was one time where I was having a conversation with her, and she suddenly stopped after I said something, got a lecturing look on her face and in her tone (this only happens when she’s about to use Te), and said plainly, “I love ya. But let’s talk.” And then she told in me in a Te way of things that I was doing that she thought were hurtful to me and to her. I’ll admit that the Te tone was abrupt to me and made me feel defensive, but I kept thinking about how she started out with “I love ya.” It reminded me that in spite of how I was reacting to the manner of her message, she really did care about me and had good intentions with me. So I responded to her in a non-defensive way, and we ended up having a good conversation.

    It would probably be helpful to just state something directly like that at the beginning. Also, if this is a person who you’re close to and will be spending a lot of time with, you may want to have a conversation with them explaining that this is your style of speaking when discussing problems and issues, but that they should know that it in no way means that you think less of them but that it means that you care about them and want to help them and your relationship. I would still give a disclaimer at the beginning of every time you start a Te discussion just to remind them.

    If the Fe-user is not someone you’re close to . . . then it’s more iffy in terms of not raising hackles. Even giving a disclaimer before a conversation like that involving something personal may still not be enough. I’m still fuzzy in my mind about this circumstance.

    uumlau is an expert at delivering Te messages in an Fe-friendly way when he’s over in the NF sphere. Maybe study what he does?

    I wish I had more time to think about this at the moment. Do any Fe-users reading this thread have any other advice?

    (BTW, can someone tell me how to do mentions? I tried to do it for Z Buck and uumlau, but I can't figure it out. Thanks!)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  2. #32
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    On the other hand, is there any advice that you guys (or any Fi-users) have as far as how Fe-users can avoid hurting Fi-users when we're talking to them?
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  3. #33
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lations?page=2
    It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

    A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lations?page=2
    It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

    A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.
    Right . . . the INFJ-ENTP relationship is one of extinguishment, but the INFJ-ENFP relationship is a mirror relationship. Just wanted to clarify this thread is about INFJ-ENFP, but I'm sorry if you're referring to another post and I missed the reference.

  5. #35
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lations?page=2
    It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

    A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.
    Totally no big deal...but you typed 'INFJ - ENTP relationship'...when this thread is pertaining to INFJ - ENFP (I didn't go to the link to see if that was just a typo).

    You know...I personally haven't ever heard of an INFJ - ENTP relationship lasting...but I'm sure they exist. They must...even if these relationships are considered more challenging for whatever reason by whatever 'expert'. I actually think in many cases the communication is 'better'...easier...at least in the very beginning...than it is with INFJ - ENFP. I think it does take some time for INFJs & ENFPs to 'learn' how to communicate with each other...(athough with my INFJ female friend...I just feel like I'm talking to a more articulate/intellectual version of myself and it has always been that way from the beginning). With INFJ - ENFP relationships...I've heard of it going both ways. I've heard of couples falling in love...and living out their days like they're taken from the pages of a fricken romance novel...(I've actually heard of some very old INFJ ENFP couples...like married 20, 30, 40 years and still going)...and then I've heard of these relationships falling-apart very quickly. You just never know.

  6. #36
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You know...I personally haven't ever heard of an INFJ - ENTP relationship lasting...but I'm sure they exist. They must...even if these relationships are considered more challenging for whatever reason by whatever 'expert'. I actually think in many cases the communication is 'better'...easier...at least in the very beginning...than it is with INFJ - ENFP. I think it does take some time for INFJs & ENFPs to 'learn' how to communicate with each other...(athough with my INFJ female friend...I just feel like I'm talking to a more articulate/intellectual version of myself and it has always been that way from the beginning). With INFJ - ENFP relationships...I've heard of it going both ways. I've heard of couples falling in love...and living out their days like they're taken from the pages of a fricken romance novel...(I've actually heard of some very old INFJ ENFP couples...like married 20, 30, 40 years and still going)...and then I've heard of these relationships falling-apart very quickly. You just never know.
    I know there's an ENTP/INFJ couple on here (neither really post anymore though) - LiquidLaser and Ladypinkerton. So yeah, they do exist.

    From personal experience (not that I've *been* in one, although I can cite friendships/potential-relationships-that-never-went-anywhere), I think there is a certain aspect of effortless of understanding/communication, at least *initially*, but over time it becomes apparent it's almost exclusively a cerebral connection/intuitive-fun-land, and there's nothing tangible sustaining any of it, and both approach life and make decisions extremely differently... thus a 'common goal'/vision is very challenging or non-existent (at least, and obviously, in the unsuccessful pairings. If successful, I would think the tangibles would have to align).

    It's a deal where initially you think you understand each other perfectly, but over time realize you don't, not at all...or at least, not in the way you thought you did. Easy to be caught up in the early stages though. Of course, it's not like this phenomenon isn't present in other/all pairings.... w/ ENTP/INFJ I think the divide/challenge is the Ne/Ni difference and the EP / IJ thing. The shared FeTi isn't all it's cracked up to be. Basically... pros and cons to everything!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #37
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lations?page=2
    It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

    A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritual Science View Post
    Right . . . the INFJ-ENTP relationship is one of extinguishment, but the INFJ-ENFP relationship is a mirror relationship. Just wanted to clarify this thread is about INFJ-ENFP, but I'm sorry if you're referring to another post and I missed the reference.
    As Bill Clinton would say. Thats socionics, stupid.
    its describing what in mbti would be the infp-entp relationship. If you ve read the description it d be obvious that it doesnt make sense. INFj (EII, Fi-Ne) Right.

    I ve dated an infp. Didnt work out. She's a friend but I wouldn't want a deeper connection with her. Now I dont exactly have the kind of sample to make statistics out of it and anecdotal data is just that. I ve had isfps and infp interest toward me, it generally was fun to chat for a while but it stopped there as far as I was concerned. I find I cannot feel attraction toward people I feel/think/vibe couldn't handle who i actually am without taking it personally. I'd rather explain and apologize at times knowing it isn't needed as anything else than a sign of appreciation and true respect rather than being restricted in the topics I get to talk about if I want to maintain the relationship. Now ofc there is individual variation so im just referring to my limited experience.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    As Bill Clinton would say. Thats socionics, stupid.
    its describing what in mbti would be the infp-entp relationship. If you ve read the description it d be obvious that it doesnt make sense. INFj (EII, Fi-Ne) Right.
    I'm confused now. Was I wrong to correct this person? I guess I'm a noob when it comes to typology and I don't sufficiently understand the difference between socionics and mbti. What does (EII, Fi-Ne) mean? And why is the j lowercase. Sorry for the noob questions.

  9. #39
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritual Science View Post
    I'm confused now. Was I wrong to correct this person? I guess I'm a noob when it comes to typology and I don't sufficiently understand the difference between socionics and mbti. What does (EII, Fi-Ne) mean? And why is the j lowercase. Sorry for the noob questions.
    That's okey. Socionics is a different system. It uses jungian functions as well and is very similar to mbti in many ways but some types are different. The socionics infp is the mbti infj basically. Or at least thats as close as you are going to get.
    In MBTI INFP and INFJ or ENTP and ENTJ are very different types. Think of it as someone liking icing on cakes, creamy white fluffy cakes with a zest of citrus... but ones uses it to throw it on clowns the other to market it. Most preferences seem to make them similar people but the fact that the finality is so different hint at the fact that they are driven by very different processes.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #40
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    INFP and INFJ are very different types just as ENTP and ENTJ are very different types. Think of it as someone liking icing on cakes, creamy white fluffy cakes with a zest of citrus... but ones uses it to throw it on clowns the other to market it. Most preferences seem to make them similar people but the fact that the finality is so different hint at the fact that they are in driven by very different processes.
    This is true. A lot of noobies to MBTI underestimate how different the one letter (be it P or J) makes between two types that have all their other letters in common. For example, ENFPs and ENFJs are only one letter apart, but they operate in entirely different mind spaces. Enitrely. And, at least on this forum they are notorious for not getting along with each other.

    The differences become easier to spot if you look at the Jungian Cognitive Functions (JCFs):

    ENFP = Ne > Fi > Te > Si
    ENFJ = Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

    Nary a single function in common (at least in the top four functions).
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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