User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 52

  1. #21
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    As I’ve said here and there before- and as always, essentially only speaking for myself (though others have tended to agree)- I think a large part of needing ‘external harmony’ is because Ti is so easily drowned out that it’s too hard to communicate without it. Imagine trying to figure out how you feel while someone is standing right there saying NO YOU SHOULD FEEL *THIS* every time you tried talking about it? I’m not sure if that translates well as being reciprocal, I just know that dealing with heavy Te will make me think “Aw f#ck it!” and I’ll completely give up on even trying to communicate. It isn’t that I’m thinking “We need to pretend everything is roses, because then reality will follow suit.” It’s more about heavy Te coming across as really invasive, interrupting me with ‘THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK’ so much that I’m not even able to effectively put my own thoughts together over the din of it.

    edit: Lol, I just noticed EW also posted basically the same thing just before me (while I was writing this post).
    But this is also very much like what you and I were discussing that we were attributing (whether rightly or wrongly so)...to Ne & Ni. Nailing down internal reality vs external reality. Who the heck knows what this stuff is about and what does what. Something's going on... : )

    EDIT: whoops...I'm totally sick and not even really awake yet so I probably shouldn't have posted. That may have come out weird. I was just thinking that I have seen the same phenomenon described and attributed to N...F...and T.

  2. #22
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INfJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,680

    Default

    ^That's a good point. Ni likes the external world to remain more static so that there's freedom in the internal world, so that we can play with meanings and find ways of looking at things in a new light- so any emo upheaval in the external environment feels a lot more chaotic to us. I want fluidity in my internal landscape- so I need my external landscape to chill. But Ne can more easily handle it- Ne'ers crave stillness in their internal landscape, and 'anything goes' with their external.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #23
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ^That's a good point. Ni likes the external world to remain more static so that there's freedom in the internal world, so that we can play with meanings and find ways of looking at things in a new light- so any emo upheaval in the external environment feels a lot more chaotic to us. I want fluidity in my internal landscape- so I need my external landscape to chill. But Ne can more easily handle it- Ne'ers crave stillness in their internal landscape, and 'anything goes' with their external.
    Yah...in answer to EW's Fi/Te and Fe/Ti question....for me...I score so pathetically low on Te ( <--- like it's down there with Se & Si haha! I'm more Ne>Fi>Ni>Ti) I think the differences I experience with INFJs can only be attributed to the Ne/Fi Ni/Fe bridge. I have no idea if that even made sense!!! haha. Pass the theraflu!!!

  4. #24
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Yeah, I dunno, I think topics like these are what has caused me to throw my hands up in the air re. mbti, as I often tend to relate to multiple sides / FiTe elements and FeTi elements. It's like a convoluted mix of things for me. Maybe too I just don't know how I actually work - in a way where I'm able to translate it into mbti- even though I feel like I understand myself well.

    External harmony's great, and desirable, but it's a bit of a facade if the internal is unraveling / I sense we're in internally different places. Also, if internally I'm feeling something is off, I can't even pretend to go along merrily externally, nor do I think that speaks well or bodes well to the true health and compatibility of both people in the relationship; it's something that I need to talk through with the person. (In short, I don't think it's desirable or does anyone any good to keep things in and keep up an external facade if it doesn't jive with the internal). External and internal have to allign for me.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  5. #25
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    This has been my experience with Fe users as well. My first love was an INFJ. I didn't know anything about MBTI or Jungian Cognitive Functions back then, but looking back on it there were clearly some Fe / Fi issues going on between us.

    I used to say that one of the ways my INFJ ex drove me crazy was that he wanted to smooth over conflict by "pretending it didn't happen." In retrospect, I've come to understand that it's not that he wanted to "pretend" it didn't happen. It's just that he wanted to ensure a congenial outer world before he tackled his inner world. I was just the opposite. I wanted to get our inner world all fixed up before tackling our outer world. We each felt like the other was getting things backwards and this caused a lot of tension between us.

    Just for the record, now that I understand the dynamic between Fe and Fi better, I think such obstacles could be relatively easily overcome. But back then, it just seemed like he was always missing the point.
    I love the warm, gushy nurturing of Fe, though. I mean I understand why Fi people have a problem with bad Fe, or Fe that has conflicting values, I certainly do, but I cannot demonize Fe types because I seem to be quite attracted to some of them both as female or male friends, and as lovers.

    I also think that's why I'm an Fi dom versus a Pe dom, because I think Te is my animus (this is ideally what a man *should* be, cool calm collected hard-working in control, etc.) and I'm strongly attracted to Fe men (opposing personality).

  6. #26
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Damn! I had a post all typed out, and then when I went to post it, I had timed out and it got erased! Augh . . . I really liked it too! *grumbles some more*

    So anyway, here is take two (typed onto Word first!):


    I also notice the tension with ENFPs wanting to air out problems in the relationship more than me in my experiences with ENFPs. But the idea that Fe-users always try to avoid external conflict seems off to me. I believe there comes a point where talking over a problem in the relationship (platonic or romantic) is healthy, and I think that the majority of Fe-users feel this way too.

    This is how I see it:

    When Fe-users want to talk about a problem or a disagreement, there are “rules” that they follow in order to try to take the disagreement out of “the realm of the personal.” This is because since these issues in a relationship involve feelings and people, they are inherently personal (to Fe). So to try to avoid hurt feelings on the other person’s part, they use “codes” to try to signal to the other person that it’s not meant personally. These are things like saying something positive or something that you agree about first, and then going into the thing that you disagree about second. It could also be things like saying “to me,” “I believe,” “I could be wrong, but it seems like…” (it could be arguably said that some of these things also have to do with Ti coming into play).

    But ENFPs use Te to try to sort out issues in a relationship, which there’s nothing wrong with. But Te doesn’t use these “codes” to signal it’s not personal, because when using Te, it’s already impersonal. But this can cause tension when an Fe-user is looking at the Te message through the lens of Fe (which is extremely hard not to do). The Fe-user sees the Te message as not using these “codes,” and so it comes across as harsh and at worst aggressive. The Fe-user then feels defensive, and then could react by retreating from talking about the relationship problems because they know they’ll react in a defensive way and are trying to avoid hurting the person they care about (which would then be viewed by the Fi/Te user as avoiding dealing with the relationship problem altogether). Or worse, the Fe-user could react to the Te message by becoming aggressive themselves (which they view as being a response to the Te-user’s—perceived but not normally actual—aggressiveness), and then the conflict really rises. Once Fe and Te start butting heads, it’s all downhill from there, IMO.

    Again, I’m not saying either of these approaches is inherently wrong, but that the methods tend to rub each other the wrong way.

    To be honest, although I do see Te as having its uses and not being inherently wrong, I don’t do too well when someone starts using it with me IRL. I try to dodge it as much as possible. I don’t mean that I avoid Fi/Te users (in fact, the majority of people I know are Fi/Te users) but that if I notice that someone is trying to use it with me, I hedge around it. I try to access their Fi instead, or simply get out of its way. I want to be able to deal with Te messages better; it’s a work in progress for me. (Edit: I'm in trouble--I just started becoming friends with an INTJ--ha. This'll be good practice for me with trying to get better with this.)
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #27
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    950

    Default

    @SubtleFighter (or anyone else reading this thread) do you have advice on how a Te user (like me) might be able to present their Te in a little less Fe-user-freaking-out kind of way? I'd really like to be able to use my Te around Fe users without freaking them out. Te can be a wonderful thing. Like I said before, Te is about getting shit done. And shit just sometimes has to get done. But I certainly don't want to create unintended anxiety/hostility with it. Any words of advice would be appreciated.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  8. #28
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Te is about getting shit done.
    Okay. Now I see why I score so low on Te. ha!

  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    As I’ve said here and there before- and as always, essentially only speaking for myself (though others have tended to agree)- I think a large part of needing ‘external harmony’ is because Ti is so easily drowned out that it’s too hard to communicate without it. Imagine trying to figure out how you feel while someone is standing right there saying NO YOU SHOULD FEEL *THIS* every time you tried talking about it? I’m not sure if that translates well as being reciprocal, I just know that dealing with heavy Te will make me think “Aw f#ck it!” and I’ll completely give up on even trying to communicate. It isn’t that I’m thinking “We need to pretend everything is roses, because then reality will follow suit.” It’s more about heavy Te coming across as really invasive, interrupting me with ‘THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK’ so much that I’m not even able to effectively put my own thoughts together over the din of it.

    edit: Lol, I just noticed EW also posted basically the same thing just before me (while I was writing this post).

    It is really interesting to look at your post and mine (describing the same thing, but from polar opposite ends) right next to each other.

    [even further editing/adding:] I'm inclined to say that heavy Te actually gives me paralysis because it feels very much like a stadium blowhorn going off inches from my face.....I just can't think around it.
    Valuable knowledge, thank you... this will be very helpful in my personal life...

    To me, using heavy Te occurs when I am overwhelmed and stressed out, and it "silences" things for me... it makes things simple, easy, manageable. It allows me to escape the sometimes self-engulfing emotions of Fi. I never realized that it could be deafening to others, too.

    I feel the same way about Fe sometimes though, interestingly. Like the need for external quiet silences my internal Fi voice.

    So how do we overcome the opposing needs for external quiet and internal speech in the F and T universes...? Being aware of our external Judging function more, and how we need to be gentle with it around others?

  10. #30
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    Damn! I had a post all typed out, and then when I went to post it, I had timed out and it got erased! Augh . . . I really liked it too! *grumbles some more*

    So anyway, here is take two (typed onto Word first!):


    I also notice the tension with ENFPs wanting to air out problems in the relationship more than me in my experiences with ENFPs. But the idea that Fe-users always try to avoid external conflict seems off to me. I believe there comes a point where talking over a problem in the relationship (platonic or romantic) is healthy, and I think that the majority of Fe-users feel this way too.

    This is how I see it:

    When Fe-users want to talk about a problem or a disagreement, there are “rules” that they follow in order to try to take the disagreement out of “the realm of the personal.” This is because since these issues in a relationship involve feelings and people, they are inherently personal (to Fe). So to try to avoid hurt feelings on the other person’s part, they use “codes” to try to signal to the other person that it’s not meant personally. These are things like saying something positive or something that you agree about first, and then going into the thing that you disagree about second. It could also be things like saying “to me,” “I believe,” “I could be wrong, but it seems like…” (it could be arguably said that some of these things also have to do with Ti coming into play).

    But ENFPs use Te to try to sort out issues in a relationship, which there’s nothing wrong with. But Te doesn’t use these “codes” to signal it’s not personal, because when using Te, it’s already impersonal. But this can cause tension when an Fe-user is looking at the Te message through the lens of Fe (which is extremely hard not to do). The Fe-user sees the Te message as not using these “codes,” and so it comes across as harsh and at worst aggressive. The Fe-user then feels defensive, and then could react by retreating from talking about the relationship problems because they know they’ll react in a defensive way and are trying to avoid hurting the person they care about (which would then be viewed by the Fi/Te user as avoiding dealing with the relationship problem altogether). Or worse, the Fe-user could react to the Te message by becoming aggressive themselves (which they view as being a response to the Te-user’s—perceived but not normally actual—aggressiveness), and then the conflict really rises. Once Fe and Te start butting heads, it’s all downhill from there, IMO.

    Again, I’m not saying either of these approaches is inherently wrong, but that the methods tend to rub each other the wrong way.

    To be honest, although I do see Te as having its uses and not being inherently wrong, I don’t do too well when someone starts using it with me IRL. I try to dodge it as much as possible. I don’t mean that I avoid Fi/Te users (in fact, the majority of people I know are Fi/Te users) but that if I notice that someone is trying to use it with me, I hedge around it. I try to access their Fi instead, or simply get out of its way. I want to be able to deal with Te messages better; it’s a work in progress for me. (Edit: I'm in trouble--I just started becoming friends with an INTJ--ha. This'll be good practice for me with trying to get better with this.)
    Wow, that's really interesting. Thank you so much for describing all of that. To me, the "codes" you talk about with Fe are frustrating and make things feel not genuine. With Fi-Te, I do want to air everything out, and I want to get right down to the bottom of what both people feel, every negative and positive, everything between us, and then we can look at it together and sort it all out. I understand wanting to protect the other, but to me, that just seems stifling and like we're trying to hide from each other... I think I'm suffering from that in my relationship now, honestly. It's so hard for me to feel deep emotional intimacy with the other person if I'm never allowed to express myself completely, or if my SO won't express himself completely. The bolded is spot on.

    So like EW is asking... how can Fi-Te users present what we need to share without running Fe off? Most of us have a poor grasp of Ti at best, and have a very hard time knowing what kinds of codes we should use to protect the other person.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] ESFP and ENFP Relationships
    By PeaceRobin in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-15-2015, 10:24 PM
  2. [NF] INFJ and ENFP relationship
    By Destiny in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-02-2014, 04:33 AM
  3. [ENFP] INFP and ENFP relationship
    By Spiritual Science in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-16-2014, 07:11 AM
  4. [ENFP] INFJ and ENFP?
    By hearthem in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-09-2010, 08:06 PM
  5. [MBTItm] INFJ and ENFP
    By Desert Flower in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 02-18-2010, 08:24 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO