User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 52

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Hmmm, I never thought of it like that before, but Fe/Fi differences seem like the source of occasional tension. I like the phrase "emotionally merge." It's like I'm trying to merge by expressing feelings, but I end up just feeling like a negative cry baby because she doesn't need to express her feelings to me to work through them, but I need the validation of knowing that what I am feeling isn't crazy because I'm introverted, sometimes extremely so. I usually test 95-100% introverted.

  2. #12
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Just for the record, what @SubtleFighter said totally rocks! It really warms my heart to hear an Fe-user talk about Fi-usage to coherently. It really made me tear up.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #13
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    950

    Default

    I've been putting off answering @Spiritual Science's OP for a few days because I have soooo much to say about it and haven't yet had the time to organize my thoughts. I could talk for hours about the special relationship among ENFPs and INFJs. I find ENFP/INFJ relationships both challenging and immensely rewarding.

    In Sum: ENFPs and INFJs are mirrors. Look at their function order. It's stunning how similar the two types are:

    ENFP - Ne > Fi > Te > Si
    INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se

    Look at how all the capitalized letters (mental functions) match perfectly. Yet the function attitudes (e versus i) are opposite (aka mirrors) of each other. The result is that ENFPs and INFJs are sooo alike... and simultaneously sooo different... all at the same time.

    My personal experience: First of all, there is nothing that will make me go more knobby knocker in the knees than a warm-blooded, heterosexual INFJ male. (Too bad you INFJ males are so damn rare.)

    ENFPs and INFJs have this weird, almost psychic way of communicating with each other. I have experienced this kind of weird, strong, super-evocative connection with every single INFJ I've ever met. (And, I've heard from these same INFJs that they experience the same thing with me.) I've come to attribute this special energy that ENFPs and INFJs share to the way they both share N > F > T > S in the exact same order.

    Obstacle to overcome: Even though we're very much alike, there are notable differences as well. The major difference is that INFJs use Fe/Ti and ENFPs use Fi/Te. These differences account for a lot of miscommunication and misattribution of motives between INFJs and ENFPs. I'm going to try to pull together some of the differences between Fe/Ti and Fi/Te users. But until then, I want to reiterate that what @SubtleFighter said seems spot on accurate to me.

    I guess I'd say that INFJs and ENFPs can be very well-suited for both friendships and romantic relationships as long as they can overcome the Fe/Ti and Fi/Te obstacles.

    Anyone one to chime in here with a high level overview of Fe/Ti and Fi/Te differences? @fidelia? @Starry? @skylights? @PeaceBaby? @Elfboy? @Orobas? @? @uumlau? @Z Buck McFate?

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Following cue from EW, I think @Starry hit on something really important with this:

    I even went onto say that I don't want a relationship where there isn't any problems. But he apparently did.
    My ESFJ and I struggle with this too. I don't expect nor do I want a relationship without conflict. I see division and tension as something that can be dealt with outwardly, logically, and efficiently - Te, basically. And I expect overcoming conflict to better our relationship, deepening our emotional connection as both of us grow inwardly (Fi) by virtue of learning from that conflict and its resolution. Whereas my ESFJ sees conflict as inherently problematic to the relationship, an unraveling of the internal system that holds us together (Ti) and any external tension as threatening to the state of harmony between us (Fe). This is really hard for me, because I want to air my struggles, but he feels threatened by that. He feels like I keep him at an emotional distance, and I do, because talking to him about my internal conflict about the state of our relationship upsets him. I wish I had a good answer for how to overcome this, besides careful communication and compromise, but I am sloshing through it myself right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    she remains tight-lipped about [her problems] and you need to press her in order to get her to share? If so...I believe this is a fairly common 'ENFP relationship complaint'...and it has nothing to do with not trusting the other person...or not wanting to be forthcoming and share.
    Yeah. It's genuinely just hard for me to talk about my conflicts and complex, negative emotions. They're very "fuzzy" to me... lots of images and big-picture concepts and feelings that do not always fit well into the limited concepts that language provides. It takes a lot of work and often a good deal of time for me to externalize what I understand intuitively and feel emotionally inside. Much of the time I will have a particular negative feeling associated with certain things and an understanding that I need those things to change in a certain way but it takes a lot of talking for me to be able to describe exactly what the problem itself is. It's a challenge in particular in a relationship because there is the danger of accidentally hurting the other person when you are trying to express yourself. Sometimes it feels like it's not worth the mental effort to explain when you are just going to endanger yourself and your loved one anyway.

  5. #15
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Following cue from EW, I think @Starry hit on something really important with this:



    My ESFJ and I struggle with this too. I don't expect nor do I want a relationship without conflict. I see division and tension as something that can be dealt with outwardly, logically, and efficiently - Te, basically. And I expect overcoming conflict to better our relationship, deepening our emotional connection as both of us grow inwardly (Fi) by virtue of learning from that conflict and its resolution. Whereas my ESFJ sees conflict as inherently problematic to the relationship, an unraveling of the internal system that holds us together (Ti) and any external tension as threatening to the state of harmony between us (Fe). This is really hard for me, because I want to air my struggles, but he feels threatened by that. He feels like I keep him at an emotional distance, and I do, because talking to him about my internal conflict about the state of our relationship upsets him. I wish I had a good answer for how to overcome this, besides careful communication and compromise, but I am sloshing through it myself right now.
    Hm I think I may know what you mean. My ESFJ ex didn't avoid conflict (to the contrary...) but he did think that everything would get better if we acted like it was better. I would be like "nothing is going to change if you do not address the underlying core issue" and he would be all like "see, you are being very negative, now let's eat blow pops and watch Dario Argento films."

    Typically I'd go for it, because it was better to get along with him than to not to...but in the end, to me it just seemed like he was a person who avoiding fixing the inside of our relationship, though sometimes in highly expressive broken moments he seemed ENTIRELY AWARE of what was wrong.

    I don't know, my ESFJ ex is/was unhealthy.

    But I think this may be an Fe versus Fi thing. "Hey if we act like everything is in harmony...then it is!"

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But I think this may be an Fe versus Fi thing. "Hey if we act like everything is in harmony...then it is!"
    Yeah, exactly. Like Fe seeks to start outside and move in. Create harmony in the external world and then there can be harmony internally. Whereas Fi HAS to have internal harmony, or there will be no external harmony. ESFJ is always worried that when I bring up an internal issue, our relationship is in mortal danger. I'm like, hello, no, if our relationship was in danger I would not be talking to you about this at all. It's a sign of my trust and intimacy that I bring things up like that. Sometimes Fe external harmony feels like a band-aid over a deep wound, though, trying to cover things up so you can't see how bad it actually is. To me that feels even worse than just airing it out in the open.

    Also relevant is that ESFJ is a 9... so... yeah, conflict-avoidant.

  7. #17
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah, exactly. Like Fe seeks to start outside and move in. Create harmony in the external world and then there can be harmony internally.
    I've found there is truth to this. I mean I liked our little "world" and sometimes I just wanted things to be our little world again. But the problem was, of course, is that there would be hell again if he wouldn't face some internal things, which of course, disrupted that very world. I think seriously he was in an Fe/Ne loop some of the time, though, which is why I say he was unhealthy. I think this was his avoidance of the internal, so I don't want to say that all ESFJs are like him. He clearly had Si, though. Clearly.

    Whereas Fi HAS to have internal harmony, or there will be no external harmony. ESFJ is always worried that when I bring up an internal issue, our relationship is in mortal danger.
    Yeah, like "why are you fucking things up? I don't want to talk about this when we're getting along." Then he would be too upset when we weren't getting along to talk about.

    So the only time he talked about it is if I left, and he had a nervous breakdown and was in a pool of his own vomit.

    I'm not describing a healthy ESFJ here, I can assure you.

    I'm like, hello, no, if our relationship was in danger I would not be talking to you about this at all. It's a sign of my trust and intimacy that I bring things up like that. Sometimes Fe external harmony feels like a band-aid over a deep wound, though, trying to cover things up so you can't see how bad it actually is. To me that feels even worse than just airing it out in the open.
    Yes, I need to air things. It has to happen. We can't just band-aid everything, not healthy.

    And a balanced Fe type KNOWS THIS and utilizes their other introverted functions, though they don't have Fi.

    Also relevant is that ESFJ is a 9... so... yeah, conflict-avoidant.
    I see.

  8. #18
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Fe seeks to start outside and move in. Create harmony in the external world and then there can be harmony internally. Whereas Fi HAS to have internal harmony, or there will be no external harmony.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    [h]e did think that everything would get better if we acted like it was better...I think this may be an Fe versus Fi thing. "Hey if we act like everything is in harmony...then it is!"
    This has been my experience with Fe users as well. My first love was an INFJ. I didn't know anything about MBTI or Jungian Cognitive Functions back then, but looking back on it there were clearly some Fe / Fi issues going on between us.

    I used to say that one of the ways my INFJ ex drove me crazy was that he wanted to smooth over conflict by "pretending it didn't happen." In retrospect, I've come to understand that it's not that he wanted to "pretend" it didn't happen. It's just that he wanted to ensure a congenial outer world before he tackled his inner world. I was just the opposite. I wanted to get our inner world all fixed up before tackling our outer world. We each felt like the other was getting things backwards and this caused a lot of tension between us.

    Just for the record, now that I understand the dynamic between Fe and Fi better, I think such obstacles could be relatively easily overcome. But back then, it just seemed like he was always missing the point.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #19
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    950

    Default

    Ti and Te conflict plays an important part in INFJ/ENFP conflicts as well. I'm a Te user. Te is great at getting from point A to point B in a clear, concise, and logical manner. However, it is my understanding from Ti users (like INFJs) that Te can feel very blunt and one-dimensional. I've heard them say that Te doesn't allow for all the "shades of gray" that Ti sees.

    I think this comes into play with my INFJ friends when I go into Te mode and try to simplify a problem into easily manageable steps. This drives my INFJ friends crazy. They feel like I'm being overly simplistic. I'm aware that I'm simplifying a complex problem/project into simple steps, but I'm doing it so that we can get shit done and actually tackle the problem. From my Te perspective, it seems like Ti users consistently gets stuck in the paralysis by analysis trap.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  10. #20
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INfJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah, exactly. Like Fe seeks to start outside and move in. Create harmony in the external world and then there can be harmony internally. Whereas Fi HAS to have internal harmony, or there will be no external harmony.
    As I’ve said here and there before- and as always, essentially only speaking for myself (though others have tended to agree)- I think a large part of needing ‘external harmony’ is because Ti is so easily drowned out that it’s too hard to communicate without it. Imagine trying to figure out how you feel while someone is standing right there saying NO YOU SHOULD FEEL *THIS* every time you tried talking about it? I’m not sure if that translates well as being reciprocal, I just know that dealing with heavy Te will make me think “Aw f#ck it!” and I’ll completely give up on even trying to communicate. It isn’t that I’m thinking “We need to pretend everything is roses, because then reality will follow suit.” It’s more about heavy Te coming across as really invasive, interrupting me with ‘THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK’ so much that I’m not even able to effectively put my own thoughts together over the din of it.

    edit: Lol, I just noticed EW also posted basically the same thing just before me (while I was writing this post).


    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Ti and Te conflict plays an important part in INFJ/ENFP conflicts as well. I'm a Te user. Te is great at getting from point A to point B in a clear, concise, and logical manner. However, it is my understanding from Ti users (like INFJs) that Te can feel very blunt and one-dimensional. I've heard them say that Te doesn't allow for all the "shades of gray" that Ti sees.

    I think this comes into play with my INFJ friends when I go into Te mode and try to simplify a problem into easily manageable steps. This drives my INFJ friends crazy. They feel like I'm being overly simplistic. I'm aware that I'm simplifying a complex problem/project into simple steps, but I'm doing it so that we can get shit done and actually tackle the problem. From my Te perspective, it seems like Ti users consistently gets stuck in the paralysis by analysis trap.

    It is really interesting to look at your post and mine (describing the same thing, but from polar opposite ends) right next to each other.

    [even further editing/adding:] I'm inclined to say that heavy Te actually gives me paralysis because it feels very much like a stadium blowhorn going off inches from my face.....I just can't think around it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] ESFP and ENFP Relationships
    By PeaceRobin in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-15-2015, 10:24 PM
  2. [NF] INFJ and ENFP relationship
    By Destiny in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-02-2014, 04:33 AM
  3. [ENFP] INFP and ENFP relationship
    By Spiritual Science in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-16-2014, 07:11 AM
  4. [ENFP] INFJ and ENFP?
    By hearthem in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-09-2010, 08:06 PM
  5. [MBTItm] INFJ and ENFP
    By Desert Flower in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 02-18-2010, 08:24 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO