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[INFJ] INTJ guy in a situation with an ENFP girl and an INFP girl

Mia.

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the bold is what i'd say to something i've somehow objectified. like a basket of kittens or a malformed ashtray presented by a toddler...or a man whose interest will be kept at arm's length. but that's just an ENFP talkin. who knows whether the boiling depths of INFP passion find their external expression in "aww..."
:

Usually anything we say is more meaningful than what an ENFP says. :D

agreed, and bon chance, truly. the mechanics of introvert-on-introvert relationships are like watching a naked PGA tournament.

(having said that, the sweetest marriage i know of is my INFP little sis and her INFJ hub. but they were friends for two years first, and talked about marriage when they finally got around to having their first date.)

i should know, i was there. :tongue:

Interesting, because all the marriages I’ve seen personally/anecdotally where the couple reached the most impressive state of union were introvert/introvert.


A basket of kittens?? Where?? :alttongue:
 

AgentF

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Usually anything we say is more meaningful than what an ENFP says. :D



Interesting, because all the marriages I’ve seen personally/anecdotally where the couple reached the most impressive state of union were introvert/introvert.



A basket of kittens?? Where?? :alttongue:

how meaningful.
 

CreativeCait

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Ok so I'm not sure how to act if I see her around now. Leave her alone? Act like nothing happened? Send her a random text every now and then like I would with a friend? I'm not emotionally affected anymore so that's not an issue. Just don't know to react socially I guess. The only weird thing is that summer vacation is in 2 weeks and I'm going away the whole time (and this did come up after I asked what she was up to this summer).

Just in case that she is interested, it would be nice to know before August whether a potential exists haha. Which is why I thought a casual date would be pretty harmless. I didn't make it out to be a romantic and huge deal or anything. Just wanted to explore her on a deeper level away from school on a nice Saturday afternoon. Don't really understand the whole self protect thing at this point. A first date seems pretty harmless in that regard in my viewpoint. What's the worst that could've happened? The summer break could've diffused even the most awkward and horrific date possible.

PS I don't know if this matters, but after she said that she wasn't planning on doing anything this weekend, I just said "I think we should go out tomorrow". She seemed caught off guard (which I understand) and was like "yeah?" and I was like "yup..." and told her my plan. So technically I didn't "ask" so maybe she thought I was being arrogant or something?

Uh, I dunno. So hard to know what's going on here...As I see it, taking into account your 2 week deadline and your advances so far, IMO there's really only 2 ways to proceed. Lay it all on the line so it's completely obvious or let it go. Depends on how important it is to you to pursue it and how vulnerable you feel you can be without getting emotionally crushed :( But what the hell, if you can recover from a crushing no and you won't see her again for a long time...why not put it all out there??

You don't sound arrogant to me. It's possible she was caught off guard and went into "deer in headlights" mode, either because she's not interested, she's confused and conflicted about her own feelings or alternatively because she is interested. Given some time to process, and a more obvious advance she might give you a clearer answer as to whether she is interested or not.

If you want to pursue her, don't leave her alone, act like nothing happened and treat her as a friend. That will send all the wrong signals! You want to show persistance and interest because she might still be making her mind up about you. If you don't want to pursue her, than do those things and it shouldn't be too awkward. All the best!

ps: What is it exactly about self-protection that you don't understand??
 

INTJguy123

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Uh, I dunno. So hard to know what's going on here...As I see it, taking into account your 2 week deadline and your advances so far, IMO there's really only 2 ways to proceed. Lay it all on the line so it's completely obvious or let it go. Depends on how important it is to you to pursue it and how vulnerable you feel you can be without getting emotionally crushed :( But what the hell, if you can recover from a crushing no and you won't see her again for a long time...why not put it all out there??

You don't sound arrogant to me. It's possible she was caught off guard and went into "deer in headlights" mode, either because she's not interested, she's confused and conflicted about her own feelings or alternatively because she is interested. Given some time to process, and a more obvious advance she might give you a clearer answer as to whether she is interested or not.

If you want to pursue her, don't leave her alone, act like nothing happened and treat her as a friend. That will send all the wrong signals! You want to show persistance and interest because she might still be making her mind up about you. If you don't want to pursue her, than do those things and it shouldn't be too awkward. All the best!

ps: What is it exactly about self-protection that you don't understand??

Ok for curiosity's sake is there not a 3rd option of detaching and trying again in August? Assuming she is available. Or does that kind of thing just not happen

And about the self protection...what is she protecting? It's only a first date, not a romantic venue and involves an activity. I don't understand why she wouldn't wanna try if remotely interested. There is something to gain possibly, but what is there to lose? We OBVIOUSLY enjoy each other's company enough to be friends at the very least. She wouldn't have to open up if she didnt want to. And given the fact that summer break is coming up, any negative outcome would easily diffuse during that time frame
 

Metamorphosis

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SO I basically just wanted to right there and then make my intentions clear. I flat out texted back that I'm not gonna go to the festival alone and that I was more interested in spending time with her and learning more about her because I think she is incredibly interesting (in those words). She texted back "aw thats sweet" and suggested that I ask my roommate to go with me because she would hate to see me miss out. Then I said that he's not someone I would feel comfortable talking to about how pieces of art make me feel, I guess in an attempt to convey to her that I want to open myself to her, that she has earned my trust, and that my inner convictions are something I share very selectively. I followed the sentence with a "haha" to mask my pain and received the same 4 letters in return.

I haven't read anything past this yet, so I don't know if it changed or not, but...

I would have moved on after that. It seems like a pretty clear not interested sign to me. (Of course, you can take that with a grain of salt because I'm not awesome at reading people).

Also, I never want to hear "aw, that's sweet" from anyone that I'm not already in a relationship with. You don't want to be her girlfriend.

Still, at least you put yourself out there. Props for that.
 

CreativeCait

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Ok for curiosity's sake is there not a 3rd option of detaching and trying again in August? Assuming she is available. Or does that kind of thing just not happen

And about the self protection...what is she protecting? It's only a first date, not a romantic venue and involves an activity. I don't understand why she wouldn't wanna try if remotely interested. There is something to gain possibly, but what is there to lose? We OBVIOUSLY enjoy each other's company enough to be friends at the very least. She wouldn't have to open up if she didnt want to. And given the fact that summer break is coming up, any negative outcome would easily diffuse during that time frame

I guess you could go for option 3 you never know. But if its not happening now, you might need to ask yourself what would really be different in 3 months time to make it? Also if things draw out too long, interest can be lost and you can end up in a messy friendzone with unspoken romantic feelings situation. If its a case of you havn't spent enough time together yet it may be a vaible option. Just leaves you in the dark is all.

I think the self-preservation thing applies only if she has deep feelings for you already (which is entirely possible with INFPs) and if she viewed you encounter with the ENFP negatively and is worried you will engage her feelings, then casually exit. Our Fi is so intense that when this happens it is excruciatingly painful. I feel like some of us can become attached quickly and fall hard and fast for someone. This is bad when you don't know enough about the person's character and their feelings and intentions towards you. The way to mitigate against this is to not get overly engaged in the start and treat things lightly (amongst great inner confusion and turmoil). This ofcourse is entirely overthinking the situation, a level (or more) beyond "I like hanging out with this guy and this art festival sounds like fun". Yeah, we're deep....
 

INTJguy123

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I haven't read anything past this yet, so I don't know if it changed or not, but...

I would have moved on after that. It seems like a pretty clear not interested sign to me. (Of course, you can take that with a grain of salt because I'm not awesome at reading people).

Also, I never want to hear "aw, that's sweet" from anyone that I'm not already in a relationship with. You don't want to be her girlfriend.

Still, at least you put yourself out there. Props for that.

Haha believe me I shared your same exact thoughts, except moving on right away. Gonna try to be patient for a change

And yeah the aw thats sweet absolutely sucks to hear...BUT for some reason I think there is a chance it may not be the kiss of death, particularly coming from an Fi dominant person. I actually spent quite a while reading a random thread I found on google about when girls say that to guys, and apparently a good portion say it to guys they're interested in. Surprised the heck out of me honestly, but I guess that's what differences in communication styles entails. Who knows
 

Mia.

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I think the self-preservation thing applies only if she has deep feelings for you already (which is entirely possible with INFPs) and if she viewed you encounter with the ENFP negatively and is worried you will engage her feelings, then casually exit. Our Fi is so intense that when this happens it is excruciatingly painful. I feel like some of us can become attached quickly and fall hard and fast for someone. This is bad when you don't know enough about the person's character and their feelings and intentions towards you. The way to mitigate against this is to not get overly engaged in the start and treat things lightly (amongst great inner confusion and turmoil). This ofcourse is entirely overthinking the situation, a level (or more) beyond "I like hanging out with this guy and this art festival sounds like fun". Yeah, we're deep....

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeexactly.

Some INFPs play fast and loose with their hearts. But some of us don't - we take precautions so that this doesn't happen. Unfortunately that often takes the form of once we have found someone we actually like - often a rarity - we become strenuous in the screening process from the get-go. These INFPs are extremely discriminating in the people they let in - it's extremely tied up in their Fi - so when they find one their dominant is engaged from almost the get-go and they go into lock down and secure the perimeter until the intruder has been identified and vetted.
 

CreativeCait

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Hahaha so true! I like the bunker metaphor ;)

I forgot to mention that the fact it was an incredibly casual invite might have put her off and sent of warning bells. If you went for a more typical romantic date invite like dinner and told her you were into her as more than friends it might clarify things and put her at ease as to where you are coming from. Wow, we can be a lot of work....but we are worth it!!! :hug:
 

INTJguy123

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About the enfp, in case I wasn't clear...I did talk to her at the bar for a long time. Nothing wrong with that. The infp didn't send me any signals whatsoever at the actual bar. And we had just talked for the first time only a few days before. Enfp, myself, and a small group of people left together for karaoke. I crashed at her place for logistical reasons (no ride). I don't think this is an issue at all. I haven't really talked to her since other than a few pleasantries here and there just to make sure I don't lead her on and of course to stay focused on infp. So please, no more mentioning of enfp...from...now...since I understand what you mean by the self protect mode.

BUT...could self protect mode kick in when 1)you are strongly attracted to somebody but want to allow time to deal with said feelings 2)you have been hurt in the past 3)etc

Just trying to understand this "mode" in a more generalized sense

EDIT for creativecait. Ok if she was alarmed at the lack of romantic gesture then she would fall into the Interested category. In that case, why wouldn't she wanna try going and see what happens? If it turns out to be friendly, what does she lose? She hasn't put anything on the line.

Also, if she is not interested, why not go out and show a lack of connection? And if I was dense enough to ignore this and ask her out again, then say no....with data this time. I mean, she already said yes so I've already been "led on" for the day. The date should only make her more comfortable because the lack of chemistry should tell the story to me. She cancels but doesn't make it clear where I stand, thus prolonging the period where I'm "led on". It just doesn't make sense
 

Mia.

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BUT...could self protect mode kick in when 1)you are strongly attracted to somebody but want to allow time to deal with said feelings 2)you have been hurt in the past 3)etc

Just trying to understand this "mode" in a more generalized sense

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

CreativeCait

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And yeah the aw thats sweet absolutely sucks to hear...BUT for some reason I think there is a chance it may not be the kiss of death, particularly coming from an Fi dominant person. I actually spent quite a while reading a random thread I found on google about when girls say that to guys, and apparently a good portion say it to guys they're interested in. Surprised the heck out of me honestly, but I guess that's what differences in communication styles entails. Who knows

I'd agree with this! I do it too.
 

xenaprincess

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BUT...could self protect mode kick in when 1)you are strongly attracted to somebody but want to allow time to deal with said feelings 2)you have been hurt in the past 3)etc

Self-protection mode is often the default setting installed at the infp factory. :D

it's like we are little bunny rabbits., haha.
 

xenaprincess

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I find this thread incredibly sweet, I must say, and am glad INTJ-guy won't lose (too much) sleep over this.

The thing I've learned tho is you can't know what the other person is thinking/feeling so it's useless to act so that they will do or feel something. Que sera sera. Really, it is useless. If it'll be, it'll be.

The overthinking is completely up the INFP alley, which is why several INFPs are tuned into this thread....and is what's mildly funny. :D
But in the end, you really gotta just do whatever. If it works out, it works out. If not, not.
 

INTJguy123

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Well I'd say this was a pretty productive day in the INFP classroom that is this thread and the Internet in general which I have almost finished fully reading. Beats the neuroimmunology I was supposed to look at (which by the way is a breeze compared to figuring out an INFP apparently)..until test time rolls around. But I prefer acing life's tests. Time for bed. Look forward to piecing together the info everyone has graciously provided me. I could not be more appreciative :)
 

Mia.

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Self-protection mode is often the default setting installed at the infp factory. :D

it's like we are little bunny rabbits., haha.

Yeah… it’s downright ridiculous at times (but effective, even if overly so). Especially if sp is in our instinctual stacking.

The overthinking is completely up the INFP alley, which is why several INFPs are tuned into this thread....and is what's mildly funny. :D

:fpalm: I think everything to death. To a bloody pulp.
 

CreativeCait

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Uh, its so hard to know what's going on here. These are just hypotheticals ofcourse, so keep in mind what XenaPrincess said...

However hypotheticals are fun and yes endlessly interesting to INFPs! And are somewhat usefull to know everything that might be going on.

Um, so the lack of romantic guesture. What does she have to loose as such?? Just that she paces herself way ahead of you. She sarts having deep feelings for you, but then it turns out all along you were just being friendly. I think what is more key here is the possibility that she is confused by you and her feelings for you and afraid of getting hurt. Then, a more typical romantic guesture from you would help clarify things.

Back to Fi. If she hasn't sorted her own feelings out and she doesn't know where you are coming from, she has no idea how to act around you. She's so busy with what's going on inside that she can't engage properly with you. (Is this a date or not? Is he interested in friendship or dating? How do I feel about him? How does he feel about me? Am I interested in friendship or dating? If I go to this art show what are his expectations of me? How will this change things? What do I know about him? Can I see myself with him?) This can = disaster. Not going buys her some thinking time?? Maybe she's undecided and doesn't want to hurt you or herself.
 

Coriolis

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What problem am I trying to solve? Honestly I'm trying to solve anything that is solvable haha. And what problem should I be focusing on?

i think the INTJs should have a crack at this one. ENFPs use Te perhaps a bit differently when it comes to relationships...but what the hell do i know. i just think worrying about how to act around someone is a non-problem. you should always be yourself but perhaps that's bumper-sticker talk.
Unfortunately, relationship problems do not lend themselves very well to our customary methods of solution. My gratuitous advice for INTJguy:

Do not worry about how to act around this INFP socially, unless the purpose is to get what you want. This assumes you know what you want. Do you? Your goal might be to gain her affections, or simply to ensure you understand each other correctly. If the latter, this takes away much of the pressure, and risk. It might be especially necessary between two introverts, as you have observed.

So, should you follow up with her now, or move on? If you move on and she's not really interested, no loss, but if she is, you would be missing out. If you do try again and she's not interested, her response should establish that definitively. If she is, however, you will be glad you did. It therefore seems worth the risk to contact her sometime before you leave for the summer. Start by just telling/reminding her of when you will be leaving, something you might do even just as a friend. Then level with her about wanting to know where you stand with her before you go. Make sure she understands the extent of your interest, and ask for a candid response. At least then you will know, and if her answer is "no", you can put it behind you and not have expectations lurking in the background all summer.

Allright, that's it... no one hurts a sweet little adorably vulnerable INTJ and gets away with it on my watch. You want I should have .... a "talk".... with her? Say the word man.... :devil:
First, we are not "sweet little adorably vulnerable". What have you been smoking/drinking to cloud your perceptions so?

Second, if an INTJ can't hold his own around an INFP or two, the INFP isn't the one needing a talk.

Third, Eugene Onegin is no INTJ. He is far too foppish, aimless, shallow, described many places as a "spoiled and apathetic socialite". But that is for another thread.
 

Mia.

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First, we are not "sweet little adorably vulnerable".
.

:coffee:

Second, if an INTJ can't hold his own around an INFP or two, the INFP isn't the one needing a talk.
.

:coffee:

Third, Eugene Onegin is no INTJ. He is far too foppish, aimless, shallow, described many places as a "spoiled and apathetic socialite". But that is for another thread.

I haven’t read any descriptions of him, but as for how the character was portrayed in the movie, he is definitely INTJ. An INTJ sx/sp is going to look very different from an INTJ of another flavor. The character in the movie is a stated introvert, he is NOT shallow and is very Ni in his ideas and individualistic detachment, Fi in his value and emotional expression, inferior Se paired with sx primary makes for chaotically carried out sensory appetites, and has blunt Te (and hardly any observable Fe). And to use your own description, an INTJ would make for a very apathetic socialite indeed, particularly with so missing from his stacking.
 

OrangeAppled

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in my opinion, the INFP gave a pretty clear message: she is in no rush to meet you halfway. who knows what her reasons are but text replies like "haha" and "yeah" are standard fare lukewarm responses.

all you can do is decide how far you're wiling to take this. i see that you put your cards on the table (earlier than many INTJs i've known) and she didn't exactly respond enthusiastically. do you want to pursue someone who doesn't have the communication skills or certitude to respond to a red-blooded man's clear expression of interest?

This is true to a point. I imagine she would've expressed more disappointment at canceling & hope to reschedule or do something in the future if she was really interested. The response does seem quite lukewarm & like she's not too eager to make sure you do eventually go on a date.

I really hope she is not passively trying to turn you down... If you keep getting this kind of vague avoidance, then I'm pretty sure that's disinterest though.

How old are you guys again? If the INFP is younger than mid 20s, than not being savvy in romance & sending unclear signals is not strange. INFPs can be overly modest & need to be hit over the head that someone is interested in them romantically. Sometimes they don't know how to respond when they realize someone actually is interested. It seems easier to "run" from it than deal with the reality of it; part of that is out of a fear of being "exposed". Other times it's an oversensitivity to others' feelings; how do you let them down easy? So there can be a genuine obliviousness to a young INFP & an unfortunate tendency for coyness when faced with rejecting someone...but also that this is grown out of by our 20s, or at least I'd expect that to be the case with most.

It seems like the OP did make his romantic interest clear, after she canceled, that is. At first I can see how she may have thought it was just a friends hanging-out situation though. Maybe now she's confused, because maybe she had not considered romance a possibility before.

I admit I had (and probably have) a tendency to just let someone pursue me until I'm finally cornered & must give a clear response. I'll be vague, just to "see what happens" because I'm not disinterested enough to close the door totally (which I would do swiftly & clearly if I was disinterested). BUT, if I AM interested from the beginning, then I'm more likely to make that clear, especially in a situation such as this. It's this grey area where I'm not sure how I feel about someone that leads me to be ambiguous with them. I usually have just enough curiosity to keep me from clearly turning them down. It's a Ne thing to be pulled in by "potential", and the slightest bit can keep you open to something enough to eventually be won over by it. This is the more passive version of the ENFP, who injects the potential & makes it develop themselves.

Between you & me & everyone else here :p, you could probably exploit this aspect of INFPs. I'm pretty sure loads of INFPs end up with xSTJs because they doggedly pursue the INFP until she caves (more typical behavior of the xSTJ than xNTJ, IMO). You might not want to win someone over that way, but I think it's an option.... If she was really, really not interested in the tiniest bit, then I think that would be clear by now.

My personal experience with INTJs is just that... I'm curious about them, just enough to go out a few times, but if doesn't begin to develop beyond a curiosity (which it never has thus far), then I lose interest. You have to squeeze every ounce of potential & make it work for you, then you must make sure some of that potential begins to manifest as a real connection. Then you will have caught the elusive, ambiguous INFP :tongue:

Please also keep in mind that the INFP is neither an extrovert nor a Fe type, and that you're not going to get openly flirty & gushy typical girl behavior. Every single guy I've ever dated has said something like, "I can't tell how you feel about me" within the first few weeks to month or so of dating. I probably seem very ice-queenish at first...that's just how it is. I'm slow to warm, and it seems this is not unusual for INFPs. However, I see the contrast in myself with my usual behavior, and part of that is a willingness to make time/effort to see someone when I'd otherwise be content to not socialize.

Ok for curiosity's sake is there not a 3rd option of detaching and trying again in August? Assuming she is available. Or does that kind of thing just not happen

And about the self protection...what is she protecting? It's only a first date, not a romantic venue and involves an activity. I don't understand why she wouldn't wanna try if remotely interested. There is something to gain possibly, but what is there to lose? We OBVIOUSLY enjoy each other's company enough to be friends at the very least. She wouldn't have to open up if she didnt want to. And given the fact that summer break is coming up, any negative outcome would easily diffuse during that time frame

I generally think this is precisely what will motivate the typical INFP to go out with someone they are lukewarm about (as described above). I think a curiosity will generally conquer nervousness too, especially if it's not a total stranger. I wouldn't wait too long....just ask her when she's free again. I missed the point about waiting til August - why? That's a bad plan, IMO; you need to play on her curiosity NOW.

It would really help if we knew her enneagram type. I do wonder if the 9, 6 & 5 type INFPs are possibly more guarded romantically than the 4, who I think is possibly the most risk-taking in romance. 9s seem like they fall faster though (?), but they may be passive about rejecting someone too (?). As a 4, I'm novelty-driven enough to have a "let's see what happens" attitude, but then have too high ideals that will make me lose interest shortly thereafter. 6s seem the most anxious/suspicious about the unknown. I'll over-analyze, but it tends to be positive speculation, imaging ridiculously good things. I rarely see "disaster". It's either interesting enough or not, and if it's interesting, then I think about how it could meet some ideal.
 
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