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  1. #21
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @Wanderer, I have felt similar, as an ENFP. I think it is a tendency of NFs who are so open and absorbing by nature to shut down and become shelled sometimes to protect ourselves, when we become stressed. I would think that surrounding yourself with environments that are safe and peaceful as often as possible would help you ease back into your natural soft-skinned self.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicky Jo
    Gifts are another example of that. Fe's know exactly the right gift for other people without asking, but will twist themselves in knots trying to determine what they want for themselves. They'd struggle to write a letter to ask Santa for what they want. Fi's know what they want for themselves, but can tie themselves in knots figuring out what to give other people.
    Ironically, my ESFJ boyfriend pretty much always knows what he wants and I pretty much never do. We're both good at gifts. She forgot to mention the overriding factor of J-dom versus P-dom, the cross-temperament people-reading skills of all NFs, and the impact of Extraversion and Feeling combined.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    In her defense, though, she does use the Berens model, in which we all use the eight functions...
    You're right, she does. It makes it all the more perplexing that she describes people as "Fi's" and "Fe's" then. INFJs aren't even Fe-dominant, so perhaps she's just describing Fi- and Fe-egos? Who knows!

    Either way, though, she makes me cry.


    Also, she's overgeneralizing about gifts. How many self-reported 'Fe-users' do we know that nearly force other people to receive the gifts that they have picked out for them?

    If an 'Fe-user' has trouble buying gifts for himself, why couldn't he just learn what he likes from another Fe-user, who could, of course, read what he wants absolutely perfectly? Helping each other out in this manner is the Fe way of life, man.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    You're right, she does. It makes it all the more perplexing that she describes people as "Fi's" and "Fe's" then. INFJs aren't even Fe-dominant, so perhaps she's just describing Fi- and Fe-egos? Who knows!

    Either way, though, she makes me cry.


    Also, she's overgeneralizing about gifts. How many self-reported 'Fe-users' do we know that nearly force other people to receive the gifts that they have picked out for them?

    If an 'Fe-user' has trouble buying gifts for himself, why couldn't he just learn what he likes from another Fe-user, who could, of course, read what he wants absolutely perfectly? Helping each other out in this manner is the Fe way of life, man.
    I have the nagging feeling that VJ might be a Type 2... (average integration?)
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  4. #24
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    If an 'Fe-user' has trouble buying gifts for himself, why couldn't he just learn what he likes from another Fe-user, who could, of course, read what he wants absolutely perfectly? Helping each other out in this manner is the Fe way of life, man.
    I believe she wouldn't be able to do this because all the other 'Fe users' are busy...you know...bringing their candy and 'fancy shoes' to people living in ditches ((all while my people are smokin gonga and thinking about themselves)).

  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Oh man... Vicky Jo has a lot of good points, IMHO, but things like these...
    ...make me think she has a wee bit of a martyr complex. :/
    Yeah, tell me about it; and especialy when she goes and starts mess with people, and they respond back. But that's a whole other story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Whoa wow yah. Not only a martyr complex but an extraordinarily superficial/simple understanding of Fi & Fe (I wonder how Mother Teresa would feel about that second quote!)
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I"I know what is best for you at all times. I know you better than you know yourself. Also, here; let me force a bunch of stuff on you that you probably don't need, then claim credit for rescuing you from yourself."

    Instead of 'boxing' people into four continuous dichotomies, she boxes people into two absolute cognitive functions (Fe and Fi). Fantastic.
    Certainly true. If you think that is out there, this is the one I use as the perennial example: http://www.infjorinfp.com/docs/FeFiFoFum.htm (I just find now the blog version of the article: http://infjorinfp.blogspot.com/2006/...fi-fo-fum.html where an INFP called her on it, and she apparently rethought it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    In her defense, though, she does use the Berens model, in which we all use the eight functions...
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    You're right, she does.

    Also, she's overgeneralizing about gifts. How many self-reported 'Fe-users' do we know that nearly force other people to receive the gifts that they have picked out for them?

    If an 'Fe-user' has trouble buying gifts for himself, why couldn't he just learn what he likes from another Fe-user, who could, of course, read what he wants absolutely perfectly? Helping each other out in this manner is the Fe way of life, man.
    Yes, she's taken Berens' model, and popularized it in type discussions. But she's taken Berens/Nardi's method of trying to simply function-attitude definitions and pushed it into ridiculous "key word" fallacies. So Fe="considering" and Fi is "valuing" or "knowing what you want for yourselves", thus leading to all of these overgeneralizations.

    I had to relearn all of this stuff fron scratch because of that. (Especially as the method was so prevalent, and even here, years ago, the tendency was for people to push T/F seekers towards F because they "used" "too much" Fe, Fi or even tert/inf Te).

    That's why I began using the term "humane" for F in general; BOTH attitudes. Either one focuses on people, and thus "considering" others. The difference is the standard of judgment. Fe will focus more on the others, directly; while Fi will focus more on an internal blueprint of humane considerations, which includes "universal" needs; hence, it can "consider others" as well! At the same time, BOTH are human ego's that have their own wants (and thus as children, will have lists for Santa. The difference might be in the sorts of things they ask for, with the FJ being more about the outer social world, and the FP being something more universal).

    Fe is not necessarily "already knowing" what people want. She ran that game on me, and cast Fe and Ti as "getting inferences", and Ti also as being "quick", but notice, that is describing taking in of data; aka perception! Basically, Ni and Se, respectively, but she cast it as Ti and Fe, and used it to say I had an "aversion" to those functions, and thus had to be ENFP. Basically, because I didn't realize an NF list would not be too interested in my theorizing, that made me some sort of antisocial ENFP, because Fi only cares about it's own "wants"; screw what the group wants!

    Yet if anything, if any judging function would use "inferences" of what people want, it would be Fi, not Fe, for Fe goes on the outer standards, and interpreting inferences is basically an internal process, drawing on the internalized blueprint.

    This is how she turns the theory on its ear, and I don't see how her colleagues don't see this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I have the nagging feeling that VJ might be a Type 2... (average integration?)
    Looks to me like ENTJ Type 8, posing as INFJ 2, because that promotes the "nurturing sage" image that helps her business. With all the subtle denigration you can see towards Te and Fi, Te is what she's ultimately driving off of, and if others'
    "use" of it annoys her, it's because it's not as superior (functionally efficient) as hers; and Fi is really an underdeveloped inferior that she can cast as "Shadow" (i.e. "witch", but of course, the inferior is also considered "shadow" in the four-process theory, especially when not developed).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  6. #26
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Overall, since most of these theorists are NT's, (Nardi—INTJ, Berens—INTP) what I'm noticing is that their own preference tends to skew the definition of Fi.

    Fi for any T type is not going to be as "mature" as it is for an FP, where it's preferred, and likely most matured and positive. Hence, the whole emphasis of Fi being so standoffish, always "saying no", focusing on its own wants often to the exclusion of others, etc. as you see in both Nardi and Haas & Hunziker (not sure what their type is, though; but probably at least one of them being NT).

    Tertiary/Puer ("Child") Fi will likely be more like that, and for the INTP, it's Demonic, and will even come off as worse, (if they are ever conscious of it enough for it to be able to color their perception of it).
    Otherwise, you see descriptions of FP's having trouble saying "no", and that was entirely confusing when I saw it in light of those Fi descriptions. Again, mature Fi will be more focused on others, less defensive (vulnerable), and hence want to consider them, even over self, (unless a value is seriously being violated, and even then, they are probably likely to be more open about it and try to negotiate and compromise).

    Also, this whole "Tin Man" thing I see would go along with my theory that NF is Supine in Control: http://www.pastoral-counseling-cente...ne-control.htm
    You can see in that report mention of the anger when not appreciated. That's a big feature of the temperament. They tend to be altruistic, but then if they feel unappreciated or used, then they become very angry, and can shut down or even lash out. (You can see more about the temperament here as well: http://www.temperaments.info/supine.htm)

    So VJ would be right on that one. It's likely part of what Keirsey picked up as "Choleric", but its really the opposite temperament, with opposite drives.

    I'm not sure if NF's would all identify with the "dependency" descriptions. (I know a few that do). That trait is not something really discussed much on the "type" side. (But NF's can also be Phlegmatic in Control, or a combination of the two).
    In my view, what they are describing there would connect with the "cooperative/motive focus" definition Berens describes.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  7. #27
    Junior Member moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by To this op: after I go for a period of time ‘looping’ about a conflict- examining as many different possible perspectives as possible- and then inevitably feel like it’s effort that’s been taken for granted anyway, I feel rather numb myself for a while. I’ll feel angry, but I won’t know who I’m angry at or why (since it’s not like the other person [i
    asked[/i] me to put that much effort into it, it’s just what I do). I’ll feel generally discouraged and exhausted, but I always recuperate eventually and want to dive back into interaction again.
    Indeed, I experience this, too. I often feel that all my efforts are in vain when things don't go the way I planned or when people don't appreciate me and my output. But it's true, i can't even blame the other person. So, that's when I feel so tired and dumb and cynical! And I would try to separate myself from my feelings and those of the outside world. I'll try to build walls and barriers and fences which I know I do not like but have to for the moment to cope up. And which is a paradox of what I want to do in the first place because it's like I'll just put myself and my heart in a box and I'll be able to feel the cynicism, anger and disappointment more. Eventually, I get sick of the heaviness and I bloom again.

    I don't know what you've been through, Wanderer. But I feel that it's been so tough for you. And I'm glad you're catching yourself like that, like this. I believe that INFJs won't like to get stuck in that sea of cold cynicism, anger, disappointment and shame. Unless, they're too traumatized or stressed, they might give in. But that won't make them happy. Just more cold and batshit insane.

    Collect yourself. Have you tried doing meditations lately?

  8. #28
    Member 31january's Avatar
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    In reply to the OP: I've seen this trend in two of my infj friends. Normally, they are both usually quite hopeful and cheerful people, but they've been greatly dissapointed by many things lately and seem to have become relatively angry and cynical as a result >< In a sense, they seem angrily dismissive of the things they are dissapointed about, and in general more...touchy. I'm not sure if it's really an infj thing, but i tend to respond more by being fearful or sad than angry when such things happen, so it isnt exactly a universal response either!

  9. #29
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    I bet money I know why he's feeling this way. Why else do you think he hasn't been on here for a while (at least I haven't seen him) and now is posting something, hm? -.- I knew from the get go it wasn't going to work out.
    Save Thundercats 2011 petition. Because we do what we can. HO!!!:
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  10. #30
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Why was the Tin Man INFJ? Where was his Ni?

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