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  1. #61
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I would say that sensors deal more with what is certain or what what appears on the surface to be what is, whereas an intuitive would question these perceptions.
    I would have thought it was the other way around...especially with self-confident intuitives.
    Sensors always want more information, they usually arent happy with a vague explanation and if an intuitive, especially a Ni dom, is struggling to explain what they have percieved in more detail it can be frustrating to both sides.

    Of course this is an overarching generalisation on my part, context makes it much more complex.

  2. #62
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I feel like when I make very definite judgments about others (tending to be negative), it's almost like a coping mechanism to deal with them in (or out of) my life, but I know it's limiting in some respects at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
    In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
    It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
    I really like the way you phrased this, Reverie. I’ve been tinkering with this in my blog, jokingly referring to it as Rashomon Effect Syndrome. It really does seem like ‘anger’ is an unnatural position and I pretty much have to force myself to feel it- but then in retrospect I’ll often realize I was already feeling it on some level and what I really needed to do was give MY OWN perspective enough weight for that anger to be acknowledged. And like SilkRoad said (for the very same reason- practice in giving my own perspective due weight), I need to make an effort to maintain a negative judgment about someone. And I’ve actually thought before that this effort to simply *maintain* a negative judgment can make my judgment sound especially packed with vitriol- because in talking about it I’ll say it forcefully, which is actually more about convincing myself to be angry (and it isn’t really about convincing myself to be angry so much as convincing myself to acknowledge anger which is already there- it’s difficult, but necessary in order to eventually make it go away).

    As far as confirmation bias though- I don’t think being INFJ makes someone less inclined to do this. In fact I think it’s especially infuriating to come across this in an xNFJ because we are particularly sensitive to it (we can see it going on in others, we’re ridiculously sensitive to it), yet not more naturally self-aware. [It really is aggravating to deal with an xNFJ who is sensitive to it while being clueless they’re doing it themselves.]


    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer.

    I have a constantly running inner dialogue of hunches.
    Yup. It isn’t that I feel like I’m always ‘right’ about the hunches- but I’m constantly distracted by a steady stream of them which I have to either choose to ignore or give weight to. And because, in the past, I was more inclined to ignore them (because they’re too difficult to explain)- a lot of frustration has built up about having been burned by things I’ve ignored, and I’ve often wondered if this tendency to (seemingly ‘forcefully’) insist they were often right in retrospect is my own way of trying to convince myself to have a little more faith in them for the sake of being able to give my own point of view more weight in future processing of them. But I never feel like they are *magically* right. In fact I’ve dealt with an INFJ who doesn’t question them much (or doesn’t seem to, anyway)- and experiencing first hand what it’s like to deal with that prevents me from ever really entirely trusting them. [Seriously- she could be entirely convinced of something that was so wrong it was astounding- so even when I’m almost entirely convinced of something, there’s always lingering doubt that I could be doing whatever she was doing.] My goal is just to make the mental post-it notes (from the hunches) which are supposed to represent my own POV a little bit clearer and easier for me to recognize…..not to believe in them exclusively and dismiss everything else. So (projecting) that’s what I assume other INFJs are doing too, when they assert the hunches are right (!)- that it isn’t about believing to have magic abilities to ‘see all the ends’ so much as playing defense attorney to make their own point of view stand out a little bit more, while oblivious to how it comes across to others (it comes across as “my point of view was SO RIGHT, ALL ALONG”)- but I can only really speak for myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Probably Ni making you 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th... guess everything you see about people. I'm an S and I'm very, very certain about my perceptions of people.
    I really envy this.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yup. It isn’t that I feel like I’m always ‘right’ about the hunches- but I’m constantly distracted by a steady stream of them which I have to either choose to ignore or give weight to. And because, in the past, I was more inclined to ignore them (because they’re too difficult to explain)- a lot of frustration has built up about having been burned by things I’ve ignored, and I’ve often wondered if this tendency to (seemingly ‘forcefully’) insist they were often right in retrospect is my own way of trying to convince myself to have a little more faith in them for the sake of being able to give my own point of view more weight in future processing of them. But I never feel like they are *magically* right. In fact I’ve dealt with an INFJ who doesn’t question them much (or doesn’t seem to, anyway)- and experiencing first hand what it’s like to deal with that prevents me from ever really entirely trusting them. [Seriously- she could be entirely convinced of something that was so wrong it was astounding- so even when I’m almost entirely convinced of something, there’s always lingering doubt that I could be doing whatever she was doing.] My goal is just to make the mental post-it notes (from the hunches) which are supposed to represent my own POV a little bit clearer and easier for me to recognize…..not to believe in them exclusively and dismiss everything else. So (projecting) that’s what I assume other INFJs are doing too, when they assert the hunches are right (!)- that it isn’t about believing to have magic abilities to ‘see all the ends’ so much as playing defense attorney to make their own point of view stand out a little bit more, while oblivious to how it comes across to others (it comes across as “my point of view was SO RIGHT, ALL ALONG”)- but I can only really speak for myself.
    Ah, you've explained beautifully.

  4. #64
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I've heard ISFJs say "I've never been wrong about anyone" (or similar statements) too. I've heard nearly every NF type say this as well. I've heard it the least with xSFPs, but that doesn't mean they don't necessarily feel that way (my ESFP sister has been accused of being manipulative, which suggests some certainty as to how people will behave in response to something). I think many Feeling types feel like they naturally understand people well.

    That thread I made recently about "NF telepathy" (the title not being literal, just mean to grab attention) is related to this in the sense that an NF might be overconfident in what their intangible vibes tell them about people. I find Si types do the same thing (they tend to read people's body language, etc, and stick with their trusted interpretation of such signs). One problem is when you ignore the other set of data (the intangible big picture or the hard facts). Until you have a rude awakening one day that your perspective is not the full reality, then you may not question your impressions much (whether they be sensing or intuitive ones).

    Anyhow, I DO often feel I understand people well, such as when it comes to their internal states & why they are as they are. I DON'T seek to sum people up or feel that my understanding of how they work means they couldn't surprise me. I don't know if this is the whole "Ne remaining open to alternate possibilities & future developments". There is nothing wrong with making a personal judgment about a person (which is really just an opinion), and so of course I make these. What I don't tend to do is judge someone in a universal sense.... I judge them in relation to ME: Do I want a relationship with them? How do they affect me? etc.

    Most people are suspended from any judgment until I have more exposure to them or get a better understanding of who they are. I'm largely indifferent to most people then, with very little thought about them beyond a vague impression.

    So is there a certainty? Not really. I'm only certain about how I feel about them, not about who they are. If who they are were to change significantly enough, or my impression were to change due to new info, then my judgment would be open for review & could change as well.

    The reason I attribute this openness to Ne is because when I was a young child, I disliked most people instantly. It was like a knee jerk reaction to like or dislike someone, and I suspect it stemmed from people simply being held up against some inner ideal. Of course, then, I also was not certain about who they were so much as certain as about how I felt towards them. It took a few instances of realizing that I judged people unfairly (because we ended up becoming great friends) to start suspending judgment for a bit. I see this as a development of Ne, to view things from different angles to find hidden potential. I've gone the other way since & seen TOO much potential in people, potential they probably did not really have. In those cases, I was very naive, and I have no shame in saying I can be & have been fooled by someone regarding their character. Anyone who says they have never been fooled by anyone is setting themselves up to be fooled, IMO, unless they become a paranoid hermit.

    I like to maintain a balance now, where I don't harshly dismiss someone for not being ideal nor give too much benefit of the doubt.

    I have a feeling P-doms are the ones who are more certain of their impressions, actually. I need to read the thread more thoroughly to see responses, but I thought I'd answer now since I was called to do so.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    So is there a certainty? Not really. I'm only certain about how I feel about them, not about who they are. If who they are were to change significantly enough, or my impression were to change due to new info, then my judgment would be open for review & could change as well.
    .
    Fi?

  6. #66
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    Fi?
    Yeeeees, the rest of the post pretty much explains that...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #67
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    @ Orangeappled
    so true. I completely missed your point. And it was written well too. My apologies.

  8. #68
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I'd be interested in your perspective, do you have any other comments about this question generally? Do you think it's good to question your intuitions/perceptions or do you try to do it less than you already do?
    I'm not sure how much else I can add to this discussion, and I haven't had the time to do more than skim the majority of the posts in this thread (sorry if I repeat anything that anyone else said!), but here's some thoughts that are floating around in my head.

    This discussion reminds me of the play "Doubt," which I had to read for one of my classes last year (it was also turned into a movie recently). The whole play is about how all we have to go on when judging others is what they put out externally, and there's always a possibility that we're wrong about what's going on internally. The play is about whether or not a priest has molested a boy, and it never actually tells you what the real answer is. I saw an interview from the author, and he was talking about how important it was to him that he doesn't reveal what really happened because the message is that we can't actually know all of the whole truth in real life and that it's actually wiser to be uncertain than have strong convictions.

    I do agree with the idea that there's no way that anyone can know the whole truth about anything, and so questioning your judgments/feelings/ideas is a part of a good attempt at getting closer to what the truth actually is. This goes for anyone, whatever their dominant cognitive function is.

    And I realize that Ni is inherently a perceiving function that never actually stops adjusting and adding to itself, and I realize that the majority of (healthy) Ni-doms have a habit of questioning their Ni ideas because of what I was saying in the previous paragraph. But for what it's worth, I still feel like I probably question what my Ni is saying at every step of the process of trying to find the truth more than the average Ni-dom. It can get ridiculous sometimes. Going off of what Z Buck said (sorry, I don't know how to do the mention thing) in her previous post where she says she sometimes ignores her Ni hunches because of being too difficult to explain, for me I do sometimes ignore them for the same reason, but a lot of times it's just that I plain don't trust them. It's like as soon as I have an awareness that I'm getting a notion of something, I have to play devil's advocate with myself. I start looking for holes in it right away. This doesn't happen every single time I have a hunch, but it happens a whole lot.

    And the thing is, when I look back on situations that happen, I do feel like those initial hunches I had were usually right in the first place (which some people have talked about already). But when it's happening in real time, the devil's advocate part of myself still comes out because I'm very aware that I could possibly be wrong. I do think this has to do with e6 (as well as probably having something to do with some inherent nature of being an Ni-dom) because of the issues of relating to trust and feeling like things are inherently insecure.

    This happens in all situations for me, but definitely also for trying to figure out people. It happens more often than I wish it did that I get an initial feeling that me and someone else could be friends, but then I distrust it and don't try to initiate anything only to find out later that me and them do become friends, and the opposite in that I get an initial feeling that I should stay away from them but then don't listen to it and end up wasting my time on someone. Just in the past couple weeks, I started to become friends with someone (she's probably an ENFP) who I initially got a feeling that we could become friends at the beginning of the semester within the first three seconds of seeing her across a classroom and without ever speaking to her, but then I told myself that how could I possibly know that. And since me and her never talked to each other for most of the semester (it's toward the end now), I figured that I was wrong. But just recently, she came up to me and was like, "I know that me and you never got a chance to talk to each other, but I feel like if we did that we would be friends. Do you want to hang out?". And now we do! This distrust of my first reaction followed by me finding out I should have listened to it is something that happens over and over. And I also relate to it being worse for someone I'm interested in romantically. I seriously think that I need to have someone sneak up on me (figuratively speaking!) in order to date me. If I know definitely that I have a crush on them, then our relationship is doomed.

    What I'm really trying to say is that while I believe what I said before about uncertainty being part of any real path to trying to discover the truth about something, I also really believe that it can go to the point of being harmful instead of helpful. Where is the line at which uncertainty crosses into the dark side? I don't know, that's what I'm really trying to figure out. At some point, it comes down to that yes it's impossible for anyone to have full knowledge of anything and yes our opinion/Ni hunches could change with incoming information. But our own conclusions and thoughts are all that we have to work with. It's imperfect, but it's all we got. And at some point, it's helpful to just tell the noise to shut up and just go with it. That's what I'm working on

    Okay, I guess I had more to say about this than I thought I did, lol. Hopefully when I get more time, I can really dig into the other posts in this thread more closely because it looks interesting. Damn semester final projects.

    Edit: Since I'm talking about my own uncertainties, I have to add that I also have OCD, which at its heart is all about uncertainty, so that could affect some of the things that I'm saying in this post.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  9. #69
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I think 6 adds a little dose of SJ to us all!

    Really though, I don't see any reason to question your typing. You seem very INFJ to me. I do know some Ni users who are very certain of themselves in terms of their opinions of others, but their enneatypes are... 5w6, 7w8, 8, 3... usually assertive or competency types.

    To me, my NF with people comes out when I'm interacting with them... I have a knack for getting on the same level with people and knowing how to get to their motivations. It's easy for me to make people feel taken care of. I don't really know how I do that, but it feels like I "read through" them. But honestly I'm usually interested in humanity more as a concept and ideal than in terms of the details of other people's lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112
    Si dom would pay more attention to the object, evaluating it and storing its impressions.
    Yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity
    edit: also I see a trend for Ni-doms to state things far more forcefully than they actually believe, so that may be a factor as well.
    Ne doms do this too, almost always by accident. I think to us there is the underyling assumption that we deal with possibilities/potentials/connections/uncertainties, so we're generally not talking about facts; we're talking about a more nebulous view on reality. So between dom Ns it's natural to speak in strong statements but not necessarily mean strong concreteness.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    I'm quite fascinated by people and I like to figure out what makes them tick and how I can get the best out of them, so to speak. I like facilitating human relationships so that everyone feels happier and so that there is a healthy environment for people to be individuals and to express themselves and so on, also without constantly treading on each other's toes.
    You're so totally NFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I guess I forgot to say something about Ne doms in my post. I think they seem to not be judgey at all on the outside but they can be a bit judgey on the inside because their auxiliary function is an introverted judging function. So, the Ti or Fi does have some judgeyness to it.
    And it's very confusing to people when they suddenly run up against it, too, because all of a sudden this loosey-goosey extraverted Perceiver becomes harsh and rigid, often with no prior warning, because our Judging rules are kept mostly inside.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

    I'm maybe a little too self-aware or too reluctant to contradict myself and look like an idiot, to do this. But so many people will tell you that they were right about someone all along, when you know from what they said that they totally changed horses mid-stream. I have an ESFJ friend who would do that all the time. She'll be quite infatuated with someone for a while, going on about how lovely and wonderful they are - then when things go a bit wrong, you'll hear her saying "oh, I never liked her. I always knew she was dodgy/up to no good/not a nice person. I'm never wrong about people" (yeah, I've heard her say that). Hmmm.

    If Ni is a perceiving process that deals as much with the ego as me seeing the illumination of my computer screen in front of me, a lack of second-guessing is potentially a product of low or non-existent self-esteem. Doubting requires a measure of self-confidence in recognizing that one is the final authority of what they think is true.

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