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  1. #51
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    people say a lot when the day is long.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #52
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

    I'm maybe a little too self-aware or too reluctant to contradict myself and look like an idiot, to do this. But so many people will tell you that they were right about someone all along, when you know from what they said that they totally changed horses mid-stream. I have an ESFJ friend who would do that all the time. She'll be quite infatuated with someone for a while, going on about how lovely and wonderful they are - then when things go a bit wrong, you'll hear her saying "oh, I never liked her. I always knew she was dodgy/up to no good/not a nice person. I'm never wrong about people" (yeah, I've heard her say that). Hmmm.
    And perhaps because her behavior makes you cringe a bit, it makes you not want any part of being like that? (I actually try to keep my mouth shut about my people hunches. They only relate to me anyway). The older I get, the more I'm turning my focus away from people and towards things that are less difficult to make myself understood about. And profitable.

    I agree that upbringing and family dynamics also play into it. My family were very sociable and none of them were at all self-conscious. So, really different to how I was. I spent most of my childhood wondering how they did it in order to try to get there too. I was thrust into social situations a lot. I would sit back and watch. (Wow, I sound like such a creepy kid).

    And my father made a living through fairly risk intensive means for a sizable portion of his life. I saw that taking risks could pay off. I was quite risk averse and not very self-confident as a kid. I felt I had it in me if I could just develop myself. So I just took notes from the sidelines until I felt confident enough to make my way.
    Last edited by violaine; 04-16-2012 at 07:24 AM.

  3. #53
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Probably Ni making you 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th... guess everything you see about people. I'm an S and I'm very, very certain about my perceptions of people.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #54
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @SilkRoad: I dunno. I feel like isfjs are good ar reading the body language of "drama" and tend to avoid it. Usually infjs are good at it, but can be drawn tp it if they have codependent tendencies.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #55
    violaine
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    Red face

    I also think you have to go through the process of being wrong in order to hone things. I feel like hunches can either be flimsy and underdeveloped or well developed depending upon whether they are pushed to the side or seized upon and investigated.

    I also think it's important to note whether you're overlaying something you've noticed with your own judgements. Or deriving validation or pleasure from it. I think it's good to try to take oneself out of it as much as possible. e.g. Not to be the catty guy or girl looking to take people down for one's own ends or for gossip value. I think that approach helps combat confirmation bias too, because there's less of a personal payoff.

    I'm kind of talking in circles now and not being precise enough, so I'll leave off for a bit.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    When you mention the limitations of communication are you implying that it is easy to sound more certain and final than what the actual thought processes are? I think that has happened to me, and I feel frustration with language because it always feels like a crude representation of the actual concepts.
    Yeah...I mean the whole personality issues comes to play. There are the several points of view and dynamics that you perceive inside, with varying levels of clarity and intricacy. When do we feel a need to express anything at all as value judgements are concerned? There is some kind of a need. I think that's when personality comes to play. When I think of what a personality is it's like it's arbitrary: We're born somewhere by chance and are raised in a specific surrounding with a set of values and ideas and appreciations and that has a bearing on communication style. I'm from a secular background where scientific knowledge is appreciated so I don't mind getting down and dirty e.g. kind of dissecting religions in a much more careless way than someone who's raised in a very religious setting. I think they'd be much more careful about such things. I found my first sniff of a real sense of freedom to express anything in music and after developing a series of attitudes, affections, decisions, habits and life choices most my friends are quite subculture non mainstream where it's very acceptable to express critical opinions of certain (not all ;D) things and the style of conversing is quite blunt and to the point attacking issues head on.
    In effect I think that though my inner landscape and ideas may be quite refined and diverse, my habitual style is a tad combative and poignant. I do at times express things bluntly but it doesn't mean I'm blunt on the inside. It's more that when whatever idea is projected through the filter of the personality via the not so accurate vehicle of language it inevitably presents as a caricature of itself. Usually people argue over things without even ever making sure they are arguing over the same matter because they understand the issue very differently.
    But I suppose we still have to speak... ;D

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.
    I think if you're keeping an eye on your thought processes it's easier to spot. I keep journals (when I remember to) to keep myself in check. I write them down and then review later if needed, however painfully terrible it may be sometimes to revisit my ramblings. ;D

  8. #58
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think if you're keeping an eye on your thought processes it's easier to spot. I keep journals (when I remember to) to keep myself in check. I write them down and then review later if needed, however painfully terrible it may be sometimes to revisit my ramblings. ;D
    Oh yeah, I used to be an obsessive journaler, though I don't any more. I wrote enormous amounts in my journal from about ages 14 to 27 or so. In a lot of ways it was just an outlet/a way to work things out, but I think it also helped make me both self-aware, and overly analytical/neurotic.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Oh yeah, I used to be an obsessive journaler, though I don't any more. I wrote enormous amounts in my journal from about ages 14 to 27 or so. In a lot of ways it was just an outlet/a way to work things out, but I think it also helped make me both self-aware, and overly analytical/neurotic.
    I think it's all well and good since we're here on these forums to gain deeper understanding and perspectives into our own and others' mind (as much as is possible) but for anyone who actually IS an INFJ I think the most fertile way to be is to not overanalyze. (EDIT: haha...contradicting myself. Keep a journal...don't analyze! ;D) Some things you just can reason yourself around, through, behind or between. There has to be an acceptance of certain things about ourselves that may get labelled whatever they are labelled (I feel because of misunderstanding, because if we were able to experience a different "head" it would most likely be one of those "Ohhhhh...ok....that's the most natural and normal way to perceive/ be ;D) I don't want to pick myself apart I want to bloom, if you know what I mean. I want to contribute and do my own dance. You'd think that's what everyone really wants, wouldn't you? If all this analyzing of our type promotes a kind of awareness/acceptance I'll gladly contribute because I feel right now that I want to but in my own life I just want to be myself and create things that express how things look to me and embrace the Ni-inniness ;D.

  10. #60
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    There are a lot of really great posts here.

    I used to be unsure about Ni as I didn't see how I used it. Someone suggested that our aux and tert functions are much more easy to become aware of because our dominant function is so pervasive that we are often unaware of where it is at work.

    Ni focuses on patterns and extrapolations, which is why the future is more interesting to a lot of Ni doms than present or past (except as they relate to the future). In the INFJ case, usually that area of focus is on human models of behaviour and dynamics, while I've found that the NT flavours of Ni focus more on business/invention/programming based areas of specialty. If Ni has an extensive data base of previous patterns to help extrapolate with, I think it is easier for Ni users to trust their hunches. Otherwise, it needs to keep proving the veracity of the theory using Fe and Ti to keep refining it.

    Unfortunately for most INFJs, I think this means that even if something sometimes seems a little off, they need to be able to explain it before they will feel it is legitimate. Because their focus is people, that may mean that they tolerate poor behaviour until they can actually observe and articulate a pattern which they are confident is unlikely to change, or until something serious enough happens that they feel fair in making a judgement on it.

    Ni seems kind of flexy to me and will look at a situation from a lot of points of view, which is an advantage in remaining understanding and open-minded, but it makes it difficult to know when something is a big enough deal to say something about.

    I don't see Ni as something mystical either, but rather more as umlauu describes. Because we focus on a different aspect of interaction (dynamics and principles rather than stored facts and rules), some things just seem obvious that aren't to other people. I find this is particularly true when interacting with leadership of an organization. It just seems so obvious that something is going to turn out badly if a particular course of action continues to be pursued, but many people almost need to see the "blood on the knife" before they will really believe that is the case. I find it painful to be so sure and yet have no definitive way to prove it until the damage has been done.

    It's interesting - I read a couple of threads that complained that Ni users rarely explain their POV enough for others to understand it and then act annoyed when people don't get them. I realized in the course of the discussion that often we don't think to explain certain things because it almost would feel condescending to do so. They are so much a part of the scenery that we take it for granted that other people see what we do. (It's almost like talking about something that requires colour recognition with a person who doesn't realize that they are colourblind and neither do we. We'd be happily to verbalize the criteria for recognizing red and where it may be found, but we assume other people see it just as clearly, so don't get their dismissal or mounting frustration).

    I don't mean that we are so much more insightful than others (I was actually very surprised at how effectively my ESTJ was able to read people based on noticing small details, rather than looking at patterns and extrapolating like I did), but rather that our focus is something that allows us to notice some elements that the majority of the population doesn't. At the same time, I miss details that are both important and obvious, so I value having other people's perspective to help round out my perceptions.

    I find I'm a lot more accurate at having hunches about other people before I get emotionally involved with them. After that, I find it harder to sort and separate all the information from each other and rely on a longer time period to arrive at the same kinds of conclusions. I don't think I can always predict what will happen, but I found during my years of busking that it was increasingly easy to recognize and trust gut instincts about when a person displayed subtle differences in the way they related which contributed to an uneasy, though unarticulatable negative feeling about them.

    For what it's worth, I think that you are not ISFJ, Silkroad. You are interested in how people interact and you like to know the whys about it when things go wrong. You revisit the same issue until you feel you`ve resolved it in your own head and can tuck it away safely. You use the circumstances that you`ve come across to help see a pattern emerging (either in you or the other person). These all seem Ni-ishly INFJ to me.

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